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superhl

24.09.2016, 02:04
 

treating hairloss from fat cells (Hair Multiplication & Stem Cells Treatment)

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/kerastem-completes-enrollment-in-us-phase-ii-hair-growth-clinical-trial-300333134.html


"The Kerastem therapy is a combination of fat based stem and regenerative cells and fat tissue purified with Puregraft, the market leading fat transfer solution..."Successfully completing enrollment of STYLE is a foundational step towards Kerastem's goal to be the first U.S. FDA approved stem and regenerative cell therapy to treat hair loss."




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Post reply
Lucky

24.09.2016, 02:15

@ superhl

treating hairloss from fat cells

wow ! I ve never heard of Kerastem before, they are starting phase II already? :)




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Post reply
epiker0

24.09.2016, 05:10

@ Lucky

treating hairloss from fat cells

Here's their website, they have some before and after pics:

http://kerastem.com/

Seems like subtle improvement, nothing really impressive though unfortunately.




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Post reply
ipod

24.09.2016, 17:05

@ superhl

treating hairloss from fat cells

It is already commercially available in Japan !




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Post reply
Norwood3

26.09.2016, 06:06

@ superhl

treating hairloss from fat cells

It looks good on paper but it doesn't sound like this is the kind of hair multiplication we want, this sounds awfully similar to what they do using platelet rich plasma.




Norwood3 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
fordham

26.09.2016, 17:14

@ Norwood3

treating hairloss from fat cells

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3807752/Do-alopecia-cure-Four-month-treatment-helps-patients-regrow-92-hair.html




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Post reply
jarjarbinx

26.09.2016, 17:28

@ Norwood3

treating hairloss from fat cells

Your post is uninformed.

Yes, platelet rich plasma injections and Kerastem injections both involve injections but each treatment injects different substances into the scalp. They are NOTHING alike. If you inject water into skin it's not the same as injecting ketchup into the skin.




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Post reply
Norwood3

26.09.2016, 20:27

@ jarjarbinx

treating hairloss from fat cells

Originally Posted by jarjarbinx

Your post is uninformed.

Yes, platelet rich plasma injections and Kerastem injections both involve injections but each treatment injects different substances into the scalp. They are NOTHING alike. If you inject water into skin it's not the same as injecting ketchup into the skin.


I never said the 2 are the same, I said the 2 protocols are similar in the sense that they just arbitrarily took something out of our body and inject back into our scalp. There is no real effort in isolating the stem cells that are truly responsible for hair growth and multiplying them before injecting into our scalp.




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Post reply
Ahab

26.09.2016, 23:29

@ jarjarbinx

Is it the fat cells or just the injury?

How do we know it's the injection of plasma or fat cells that cause any regrowth--and not just injury from the needle alone that might be stimulating regrowth?

Has anyone done a controlled experiment to see if injecting saline solution grows hair--or just sticking needles into the scalp without injecting anything, grows hair?

Let me guess: nope.




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Post reply
cal

27.09.2016, 09:11

@ Ahab

Is it the fat cells or just the injury?

Originally Posted by Ahab

How do we know it's the injection of plasma or fat cells that cause any regrowth--and not just injury from the needle alone that might be stimulating regrowth?

Has anyone done a controlled experiment to see if injecting saline solution grows hair--or just sticking needles into the scalp without injecting anything, grows hair?

Let me guess: nope.



Exactly. I've been saying it for years.

It's known that needling produces slight hair gains. It's known that dermbrasion does too. Pretty much any method of wounding the scalp without drawing a bunch of blood will show this effect.

Yet HM researchers never elect to run a control group for the injection process alone. Coincidence?




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
27.09.2016, 10:53

@ jarjarbinx

treating hairloss from fat cells

I understand where you're coming from jarjar, yes, it's a pretty big distinction, but Norwood3 has a serious point. There are also big parallels between the two treatments. I think this is a better approach than PRP, but still it's just taking cells out of one part of your body, and injecting them into the scalp -- as Norwood3 mentioned, without selecting for or multiplying stem cells.

I think people get overly excited about treatments like Kerastem. Inevitably, in the British tabloid press and elsewhere, we see these developments hailed as potential "cures" (they always use that word.) But, they are just incremental developments, and rather small ones at that.

I think people are confusing "necessary" with "sufficient". Kerastem, with its injection of fat tissue, may be providing growth factors necessary for hair growth, but not sufficient to regrow a lot of hair in the vast majority of people with MPB. They're touting this as a treatment aimed at both women and men, but primarily targeted at women. Hmmm... I wonder why. Probably because women tend to suffer from much milder hair loss than men with MPB. But, even on the women tested as shown in the photographs, improvements are pretty minimal. Hmmmm... I wonder if what they're selling here isn't just one more in a long line of marginal treatments.

Just because a Yale study says that "all the growth factors you need for hair growth are in fat tissue" or ADSC's, doesn't mean that this can cure you of MPB. All the growth factors needed to grow hair are definitely in there, for sure -- but that's assuming that the subject is genetically healthy and not suffering from MPB. MPB is more than just an incremental removal of growth factors. It's a pervasive and chronic depletion of activated stem cells (the stem cells remain, but they don't go into active mode), and a progressive destruction of follicles. You can restore all the necessary growth factors, and maybe grow a bit of hair, but it won't necessarily cure you, because your HF stem cells and DP cells are still seriously being suppressed by an "outside" force -- DHT. Restoring growth factors is necessary for hair growth, but it may not be sufficient to do much in people with advanced MPB.

I think Kerastem will turn out to be a marginal treatment. Bottom line, the things it is providing are "necessary but not sufficient" to fix your hair loss problem. We shouldn't get "necessary" confused with "sufficient".




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

27.09.2016, 17:52

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

Exactly.

All the nutrients required to grow a child into adult size are present in a normal balanced diet. But it doesn't mean you can make a short adult any taller just by feeding him that diet.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
27.09.2016, 22:00

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

Yes. It's like the closure of the epiphiseal plates in the long bones at puberty, at which people reach their permanent adult height, and can't get any taller (without bone-breaking surgery). With MPB, you have to have something stronger than just incrementally increasing the amount of growth factors present, in order to get over the "hump" of MPB pathology.

Contrary to what some people here have said, I think Kerastem and anything based solely on restoring fat tissue, ADSCs, or growth factors, will not be a really impressive treatment, and will NOT grow enough hair to transform (for example), a Norwood 6 into a Norwood 2. You have to have something much, much more powerful than that, to achieve that magnitude of cosmetic results. And by much, much more powerful, I'm referring to a fully cell-based treatment ONLY.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

27.09.2016, 22:45

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

Yet transplanting a fully-balded follicle onto a mouse makes it regrow to full size. It doesn't line up with the narrative that "we need cells replaced to regrow anything", does it?

And then there are the inconvenient observations of everyone from dermatologists to fellow MPB sufferes that superficial skin injuries to the scalp can provoke new follicle formation.

The facts are still stubbornly refusing to cooperate with science's understanding of MPB. I doubt researchers will make very much practical progress on treating the condition until they get serious about understanding it first. They still aren't really doing that.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
27.09.2016, 23:17

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

Transplanting a fully balded human follicle into a mouse makes it grow to full size? Really? I hadn't heard that. Not without doing something else to the follicle, adding some chemical or treatment. Can you cite a reference for this?




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

28.09.2016, 01:46

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

It was on an immune-suppressed mouse (to prevent rejection of the foreign tissue). Fully MPB'd human follicle --> full sized regrowth.

I might still have a citation noted down somewhere on my old computer's hard drive but, yeah, its been done.


It's tempting to toss this phenomenon into the mental recycle bin because it has no direct usefulness for practical MPB treatments. But the implications of it are big. Even severely suppressing a human's immune system won't help reverse the MPB process. Something else is at work in the mouse's biology that flatly shuts down the MPB problem cold.

It proves even balded human follicles can be revived under the right conditions. The "permanent scarring" in an MPB'd follicle does not pose any real problem at all. It also demonstrates how ridiculous the mouse research model is for studying MPB. You literally cannot give a mouse MPB if you try. It's sort of like trying to study the later progression & effects of AIDS using test subjects with fully-functioning immune systems.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
cal

28.09.2016, 08:56
(edited by cal, 28.09.2016, 09:39)

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

Here's a quick & dirty googling job:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/10770218_fig1_Fig-1-Nude-mouse-showing-hair-regrowth-from-both-balding-arrowheads-and-hairy



The final sentence of the text:

"In summary, this report demonstrates that balding, miniaturized follicles possess the potential to quickly regenerate once removed from the human scalp and that the phenomenon applies equally to follicles from both men and women with AGA. These findings expand the use of this model beyond a tool for screening potential therapies to one that may yield insight into the mechanisms involved in AGA induction in both men and women."



HM operations habitually go into the job already wedded to a solution while they have an inadequate understanding of what they are trying to solve. It's just the nature of the beast with commercially-motivated medical research.

MPB needs a lot more pure research to improve the treatments. Absent that, even if we do get a better treatment option it still might turn out to be far more expensive & invasive & PITA than was really necessary. It wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened. If the next MPB solution is cellular then IMO that is quite likely to be the case.

Nature shows that the MPB'd follicles can be restarted in certain circumstances and that our bodies can even generate all-new follicles with its existing repair hardware. It's our problem if we elect to ignore these facts and keep working on more complex fixes.



If we do get a better treatment any time soon it will have as much to do with chance as anything else.

We have a car that is stalling and struggling on hills. We have mechanics who are ready to try boosting the horsepower with nitrous oxide to make up for it. Others are going to trade school for years to learn how to build a whole new engine from scratch. But they aren't very interested in understanding why the intact assembled engine isn't working quite right. Even if these mechanics do manage to get us back on the road at some future "5-10 years away", it will probably come after a whole lot more time and money than it should have.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
28.09.2016, 11:43

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

OK, thanks. Good find... But I disagree that there's no obvious practical application for this. I can think of at least one:

How about removing balding follicles from a human patient's scalp and then transplanting them into mice to regrow them, then re-implanting them back into the human? Subsequently, their size can be maintained with drugs (minoxidil, etc.) This may sound like a stretch, but if this could be tested, perhaps researchers could eventually isolate exactly what factors in the mouse tissue are causing the follicles to grow larger, and then replicate that step in vitro and eliminate the mouse step.

One other thing -- are they sure that the resulting enlarged hair follicles are 100% human? Could they in fact be mouse hairs? Or "hybrid" chimeric follicles with a mixture of human and mouse cells? Remember that when Dr. Jahoda biopsied the follicles he grew on his wife's arm with his own cells, he found the "new" follicles had a mix of male and female chromosomes (an easy test to do). The follicles were chimeric. Also, one researcher criticized the Sanford-Burnham results and said the hairs they grew on mice using human stem cells were probably really mouse hairs. Don't know if that was ever confirmed.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

28.09.2016, 12:18

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

The phenomenon was first discovered many years ago. Nothing new.

It's just a sidebar in MPB research that the HM-Operation-of-the-Week never deals with. It does not point to an obvious commercial solution and studying it would require jumping through some extra hoops.



I don't know of anyone testing those mouse-regrown follicles for chimaeric issues but I doubt it was a factor. Those were not follicles being grown from cells, they were live intact follicles lifted right from a grown man's scalp. It was basically putting HT grafts onto a mouse. The grafts don't need nearly as much "stuff" from the new location as with Jahoda's cell work.



As for practical application, researchers are probably not very keen on taking grafts from the mouse back onto a human subject again because of safety unknowns.

IMO it might be more useful to do some more experimentation along these lines and look for differences between mice and stumptailed macaques.



But who would fund this kind of work? Not the HM-Operation-of-the-Week. They have cellular & growth factor crap to try! Don't trouble them with other distracting avenues when they have already decided where they are going to find the solution! And if that doesn't work then their funding dries up and they get shut down.

Eventually the next HM-Operation-of-the-Week will show up. They will already know what the best treatment plan is before they start, too. Whatever it is, it probably won't come from the annals of existing inexplicable MPB info. No, it will be another cell replication scheme. Or maybe a new alphabet-soup skin component to mess with. Yeah, maybe they will get lucky. We can hope.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
28.09.2016, 17:55

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

Sometimes the answer is so obvious it may be staring us in the face: could it just be that, once removed from the man's scalp, the follicles were no longer subject to DHT and its downstream effects?

Have they ever tried to transplant a balding follicle from a man onto a female human's healthy (hair-bearing) scalp?

I mean, HT docs do the reverse all the time, transplanting healthy follicles to balding areas. Why not try the reverse and see what happens? And use a female human as the recipient so there would be little or no DHT.

I would guess that someone's already done this, but I'd like to know what happened. The result could tell us whether that mouse experiment showed us something really significant, or just something obvious like what happens when you remove a follicle from exposure to a DHT filled environment.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

28.09.2016, 19:03

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

IIRC that has been done too. Balding follicles installed into non-balding areas stay bald. It's not the location.

The mouse thing really is significant. It has never been explained because these HM operations are trying to develop their tech into products. Solving our problem is not their #1 priority. Never has been.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
28.09.2016, 20:15

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

Originally Posted by cal

IIRC that has been done too. Balding follicles installed into non-balding areas stay bald. It's not the location.


Balding follicles installed into non-balding areas stay bald, but is the recipient location being used just on the same person's scalp? If so, it'd be subject to the same DHT levels. Have they tried it on a woman who has very low little testosterone or DHT, and no familial history of MPB or FPB?




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

28.09.2016, 23:09

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

Off the top of my head I'm not sure about that.

What is the relevance, though? Its not a practical treatment option. MPB is not a problem of high androgen levels, it's a problem of excessive androgen sensitivity to normal androgen levels. We have learned that much.

The group of MPB sufferers are statistically a bit higher in DHT. But IMO that would just be a product of the way the factors work. (Albino-skinned people probably get more sunburns in warmer sunnier countries. But we still don't call it a problem with the country having too much sunlight. The problem is still their excessive sensitivity to it.)




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
29.09.2016, 00:52

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

Originally Posted by cal

Off the top of my head I'm not sure about that.

What is the relevance, though? Its not a practical treatment option. MPB is not a problem of high androgen levels, it's a problem of excessive androgen sensitivity to normal androgen levels. We have learned that much


Exactly... and I expected you to bring that up.

However, even if DHT is the result of excessive androgen sensitivity, if a follicle with excessive androgen sensitivity (e.g., a balding follicle from a man with MPB) is placed in an environment with almost no androgens (such as the scalp of a woman who has very low serum testosterone and virtually no DHT), then the high androgen sensitivity of that follicle would be moot. I would not matter.

My working hypothesis of that mouse experiment would be simply (by Occam's Razor), that the hair regrew into terminal size because it was removed from an environment with high androgen levels, to an environment with zero human androgen levels (mouse skin).

That, to me, is the simplest explanation for what happened. I concede that it may not be the right explanation, but I think at least it must be clearly ruled out before we consider more complicated explanations.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

29.09.2016, 01:31

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

AFAIK no amount of androgen suppression & blocking will do anything of the sort on humans. Not to a significant degree like this.

Even sex change/chemical castration won't do it. That combined with topical AAs (it's been done in the transgender community) should knock the androgen levels down far enough to see some of the effect. But in practice that doesn't give us nearly enough of the effect to explain the mouse results to my satisfaction. The reviving balded hairs don't seem to revive in the gradual "start backing up the process" sort of way seen with human hormone manipulation. No, it's such a full-throttle change that I think it's beyond the scope of any action anything we have seen in live humans. I'm saying it is not just a matter of degree IMO.

Seriously, can you imagine ANY amount of cutting off androgen stimulation in live humans that wakes up totally MPB'd follicles overnight like this? (A new drug, etc) If somebody published this result from blocking androgen stimulation alone we would never believe it. Not even close. We would be looking at their results and speculating about whether there was some other factor at work.


Besides - in order to produce much MPB-reversal activity (on live humans) with hormones, a female hormone profile's worth of Estrogens must be added to the mix as well. But if the mice are regrowing human hair because their androgens aren't affecting the human follicles, then you are stuck answering why the mice's Estrogens still do work on them.




IMO the more probable answer is that we don't understand MPB as well as we think we do. The fact that lab mice are a hopelessly ineffective model for studying MPB probably has something to do with it.

I don't know whether anyone has tried the mouse transplant thing with male facial or body hair grafts. That could be interesting because facial & body hair has basically the opposite reaction to androgens that scalp hair does.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
29.09.2016, 02:19

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

Originally Posted by cal

AFAIK no amount of androgen suppression & blocking will do anything of the sort on humans. Not to a significant degree like this.


AFAIK, that's actually not true. Broad-spectrum anti-androgens that fully suppress all androgens have been shown to often (but not necessarily always) result in reversal of MPB. (Think of jarjarbinx's story using RU, and many other people using that drug or similar drugs.)

The side-effects of these drugs may be unacceptable to the point of being devastating, but they often do work and do reverse MPB. Certainly not always, but enough for the phenomenon to not be considered trivial or anecdotal.

I think that cases where it doesn't work might be in people with very prolonged hair loss which has maybe turned fibrotic or destroyed the actual follicles -- which all things considered, may be just a subset of all people with MPB.

As far as a "requirement" to have a female hormonal profile with Estrogens present, I don't think that's true at all.

Also, remember that the mouse experiment that you cited involved the transplantation of just one or a small number of follicles into one mouse. It wasn't a study involving a huge number of subjects. So the results could have been idiosyncratic. They showed it's possible, but they didn't show it would always happen.

Also remember, there is A HUGE AMOUNT of idiosyncraticity in biological systems. There's almost no experiment you can do that will come out the same way 100% of the time in every member of a species. So, just because some miniaturized human follicles grew larger when transplanted into one mouse, doesn't mean the same thing will always happen with every MPB follicle transplanted.

I'm just saying the simplest explanation should be tested, and ruled out, always, before moving on to more complex explanations, or before assuming that the answer must be some complex, unknown and mysterious factor that's always hiding around the corner somewhere.

To me, it could just be that when you take DHT-sensitive MPB follicles outside of the DHT-filled environment, and grow them in an environment with zero DHT and zero Testosterone, the simplest explanation for what happened, given what we currently know about the science, is that they enlarged because they were removed from the environment containing human androgens. The murine tissue simply provided an alternative viable, living environment with a blood supply, etc.

This also assumes another thing, which is not hard to assume:

The transplanted follicles hadn't been totally destroyed and rendered useless by the MPB. From what I know of the science, that possibly can happen, but in most cases, even when they've been miniaturized and there's visible MPB, it is not the case.

I don't think this is an unreasonable explanation. Why do we always want to believe the explanation for everything connected with MPB is some hidden, mysterious spectre that's eternally hiding behind a corner? I think that's a species of "magical thinking".

There's more research being done now than ever before. There's more GOOD research being done now than ever before.

I agree with you that most of these companies like Kerastem with their flameout ideas touted as "cures" in the tabloid media one week, and forgotten about weeks later, are just in it to cash in on some weak "product", but that doesn't describe all the researchers and all the research, so you have to be very careful lumping them all together like that.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

29.09.2016, 07:10

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

Yes, but you don't know that this result was an anomaly or purely a hormone effect. IMO it is no less "magical thinking" to brush off potentially relevant findings like this.


I'm aware of the effects of severe hormone regimens reversing MPB. I don't think that a thinning NW#3-4 clawing his way back to a NW#1-2 over the course of a year or two is adequate to describe the mouse results.


You're right, hormone results do happen commonly enough to recognize that the phenomenon is factual.

The same could be said about the effects of needling & dermabrasion producing new/revived terminal hairs - but you aren't nearly so receptive in that case.




I don't think this mouse result is THE crucial key thing to solve the baldness riddle.

I do think it is one more provocative open question in MPB research that is frustratingly ignored. It is hard facts getting dismissed with theories because they do not reinforce other existing theories. Maybe it is just a more potent example of the sex hormone effect or maybe it isn't. We think, we don't know.


And when the hard facts involve fully-balded follicles springing back to full size like magic, we are being incredibly stupid by leaving it unstudied & unexplained. It's not like we know of half a dozen other avenues for causing that kind of regrowth. If this result is representative then this effect is f**king unheard of. It could potentially redraw the boundaries of what is possible with damaged follicles.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
29.09.2016, 11:17

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

And when the hard facts involve fully-balded follicles springing back to full size like magic, we are being incredibly stupid by leaving it unstudied & unexplained.


There you go. This is exactly the mentality I'm talking about.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

29.09.2016, 13:30
(edited by cal, 29.09.2016, 13:48)

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

Oh man . . Did you really think I didn't do that intentionally?

:rotfl:


You have such an inflated perception of your own intellect that it makes you misread other people's communication sometimes.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
29.09.2016, 16:14

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

Give me a break!

I'm just a regular person, no smarter than you.

But it's the easiest thing in the world to go back and "edit" the motive for your comment like that, and even convince yourself that you meant something as a joke.

I think you just made a Freudian slip because a very emotional part of you, inside, does view these things as sort of magical. So it's a natural word for you to use. In fact when I hit "send" on my comment above, I knew you'd go back and claim it was a joke.

I think YOU'RE the one who has an inflated sense of my intellect, not me.

You're a very smart, well informed, and bright person but I think you're a sloppy thinker.

For all I know you're probably the smartest person on here. You're even more informed than I am most of the time on new developments and even many old ones, but you're just a sloppy, impulsive thinker driven partly or mostly by emotions, often times.

I do think you contribute a lot of good stuff to the forum, though. And good ideas to discuss.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

29.09.2016, 21:17

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

*BZZZZT!* Nope. Sorry. I meant it that way the first time, pure and simple!



Oh, go ahead, have it your way and don't admit it. I'm not that invested in it the whole thing.


You could call my thinking "sloppy" or call it a good cost/benefit analysis for myself. These days I am only willing to invest conservative amounts of time & mental effort into all things MPB. Many years of membership on these forums has done little for my hair in the big picture.

My field of education and professional expertise is nowhere near medical science (which is probably obvious). It's all an off-hours thing for me. I'm here because of MPB frustration just like everyone else.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Ahab

29.09.2016, 22:32

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

But wasn't there some immunosuppressant drug that when used in humans resulted in hair regrowth?




Ahab is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
29.09.2016, 23:22

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

Same here, actually -- I don't keep up with the latest moves by Histogen, Follica, Kerastem, etc. Most of these companies are offering what will only prove to be very marginal treatments.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
30.09.2016, 00:06

@ Ahab

treating hairloss from fat cells

JAK inhibitors, which are all the rage in hair loss circles now (Dr. Christiano, etc.)

They are immunosuppressants -

http://www.nature.com/nri/journal/v12/n9/full/nri3292.html

Hair regrowth results can be amazing (as shown in some posts here recently), but side effects of most JAK inhibitors can be, frankly, very risky and possibly dangerous.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


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cal

30.09.2016, 06:15

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

The JAK drugs can give impressive results in Alopecia Areata patients. The only reason we have been giving JAK's the time of day is because current HM researchers have been acting like they know something about it working for MPB. It's an unsettled issue as of 2016.



I remember there used to be talk about severe immune suppression via Cyclosporine causing hair regrowth. For a time during the 2000's it almost seemed like an urban legend in the MPB community. People were familiar with the idea but I never saw a citation of a real case. At least nothing with MAJOR regrowth worthy of the legends.

Cyclosporine is used to prevent rejection of transplanted organs. It's not something to mess around with carelessly.

A bit of evidence emerged a few years later (early 20-teens?) about a boost in the immune system actually helping hair a bit too.

This is another one of those confusing issues that might be worthy of more research (or it might not). Both immune suppression AND immune boosting have shown slight hair gains.




The Cyclosporine idea was given a boost by the mouse results that Roger & I were just discussing above. The lab mice's immune systems are radically suppressed just to prevent rejection of transplanted human skin. The MPB community speculated that the lack of immune system in the mice may have been related to the human MPB'd follicles reviving. Not necessarily the sole reason but it could have been a component.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
30.09.2016, 12:04

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

The hair growth effect of JAK inhibitors doesn't have to be related to its immune-suppression activity. It can be related, or it could be a totally unrelated side effect of the drugs. Most powerful drugs like JAK inhibitors do a LOT of different things to the body, some related to their primary mode of action and some not.

An example of another class of drug that causes hair growth is Minoxidil, which was first sold as the anti-hypertensive drug Loniten. It has a wide variety of effects on body physiology. I mean VERY wide. Acutely, it dilates microscopic blood vessels. Chronically, it increases VEGF which causes more micro blood vessels to be made. It has effects on the kidneys, water retention, salt retention/excretion, etc. And those are just some of the effects. You can see that it was really hard for the researchers to figure out which, out of all the known effects of Minoxidil, was the one which causes hair growth. I believe they still don't know for sure.

The point is, we know that some immuno-suppressant drugs can cause hair growth, and we know that a few things happen in MPB that seem related to the immune system (like increases in some kinds of T-lymphocytes in some people, I think)... On the other hand, lots of stuff that normally happens in auto-immune diseases DOES NOT happen in MPB. In fact, the major hallmarks of auto-immune disease like a known Antigen-Antibody relationship, do not even show up in MPB.

What has never been proven is that MPB is an auto-immune disorder, or that the JAK inhibitors' immune-suppression effects are what's causing the hair growth.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


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roger_that

MARYLAND,
30.09.2016, 12:56

@ cal

treating hairloss from fat cells

And yes, I agree with you cal, the immune suppression of the mice is a possible component in the hair growth in that experiment and should be looked into.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
cal

30.09.2016, 19:20

@ roger_that

treating hairloss from fat cells

There is still A LOT MORE about MPB/hair that should be looked into. That's my chronic gripe.

The MPB research world has narrowed down the targets of their efforts in the last decade as if they are that far along. They aren't. They still are not regrowing any hair and they aren't even explaining the condition very much better on paper.

They aren't zeroing in on solutions. They are just neglecting more of the possibilities than they were a decade ago. This is not the path to progress.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
hair101

Miami,
01.10.2016, 04:03

@ superhl

case closed

Case closed , not worth getting excited about unless you are just starting to lose your hair.

"Kerastem is focused on the development of product solutions for women and men with early hair loss."

From their website http://kerastem.com/about/




hair101 is located in MIAMI and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


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