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gettingthere

13.01.2012, 00:24
 

Astressin-B (Hair Multiplication & Stem Cells Treatment)

Not trying to start a storm of angry comments but in all honesty I think there is a lot of promise for Astressin-B. If you notice, those mice lost hair in a form that looked a lot like MPB. It was on top of their backs as humans lose on top of their heads. I feel like there could be a much deeper connection with CRF to hairloss than people think but that's just my two cents.




gettingthere is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
13.01.2012, 00:43

@ gettingthere

Astressin-B

» Not trying to start a storm of angry comments but in all honesty I think
» there is a lot of promise for Astressin-B. If you notice, those mice lost
» hair in a form that looked a lot like MPB. It was on top of their backs as
» humans lose on top of their heads. I feel like there could be a much
» deeper connection with CRF to hairloss than people think but that's just my
» two cents.

No doubt about it, Dr. Million Mulugeta is smart, and he's gonna be worth a lot more than a million if Astressin-B pans out.

But I think until we see Dr. Mulugeta sportin' a headful of lush locks (see his current pic below from the UCLA website), we can quit stressin' about Astressin for a while... and just keep this stuff up on our radar.

[image]




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

13.01.2012, 00:44

@ gettingthere

Astressin-B

» Not trying to start a storm of angry comments but in all honesty I think
» there is a lot of promise for Astressin-B. If you notice, those mice lost
» hair in a form that looked a lot like MPB. It was on top of their backs as
» humans lose on top of their heads. I feel like there could be a much
» deeper connection with CRF to hairloss than people think but that's just my
» two cents.

Astressin-B has literally nothing to do with MPB. Totally different type of hair loss.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
13.01.2012, 01:06

@ KO

Astressin-B

» Astressin-B has literally nothing to do with MPB. Totally different type of
» hair loss.


Very true, KO, but I think the operative theory here is, "So what?"

If all forms of (non-mechanical) human hairloss, including DHT-related AGA, stress induced hairloss, dietary- and metabolic-induced hairloss, etc., funnel down into a "final common pathway", maybe fiddling with the stress hormone agonists/antagonists provides another, completely different, angle to attack the problem.

In other words, maybe the place where Astressin-B works is in the final common pathway, which DHT sensitivity feeds into. Maybe Astressin works metabolically "downstream" of where DHT acts.

If that's true, you could either eliminate DHT, block it, or intervene at any other point downstream in the pathway, including where Astressin works.

Just my view on the theory... I'd be interested in yours.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

13.01.2012, 01:52

@ roger_that

Astressin-B

» Very true, KO, but I think the operative theory here is, "So what?"
»
» If all forms of (non-mechanical) human hairloss, including DHT-related AGA,
» stress induced hairloss, dietary- and metabolic-induced hairloss, etc.,
» funnel down into a "final common pathway", maybe fiddling with the stress
» hormone agonists/antagonists provides another, completely different, angle
» to attack the problem.
»
» In other words, maybe the place where Astressin-B works is in the final
» common pathway, which DHT sensitivity feeds into. Maybe Astressin works
» metabolically "downstream" of where DHT acts.
»
» If that's true, you could either eliminate DHT, block it, or intervene at
» any other point downstream in the pathway, including where Astressin
» works.
»
» Just my view on the theory... I'd be interested in yours.

I am not saying it is not interesting. From a basic science perspective of understanding the biology of the hair follicle, it would be very useful at understanding the different pathways that can shut down the HF. However, for our purposes of *clinical* studies, it is not applicable. It's good for academic researchers to study, but for our purposes, not something we should get our hopes up over.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
13.01.2012, 03:06

@ KO

Astressin-B

» I am not saying it is not interesting. From a basic science perspective of
» understanding the biology of the hair follicle, it would be very useful at
» understanding the different pathways that can shut down the HF. However,
» for our purposes of *clinical* studies, it is not applicable. It's good for
» academic researchers to study, but for our purposes, not something we
» should get our hopes up over.

Right, but if someone like Mulugeta happens to find something like Astressin-B, by accident, which attacks the problem at another point in the cascade, we don't have to understand how or why it works, for it to work.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
Freddie555

13.01.2012, 03:34

@ KO

Astressin-B

» Astressin-B has literally nothing to do with MPB. Totally different type of
» hair loss.

The underlying mechanism could be the same.

The hair fails to cycle in both cases.




Freddie555 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"When true Hair Multiplication comes, it will arise out of the East." - John The Revelator, Feb. 18, 2001


Post reply
Freddie555

13.01.2012, 03:37

@ roger_that

Astressin-B

» Right, but if someone like Mulugeta happens to find something like
» Astressin-B, by accident, which attacks the problem at another point in the
» cascade, we don't have to understand how or why it works, for it to work.


This is why i think a cell based therapy (if scientists can get it to work) is the ideal solution. Chasing down chemical pathways here and there will take too long.

Instead of trying to diagnose what part is not working in a car that won't start, just get a new car.




Freddie555 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"When true Hair Multiplication comes, it will arise out of the East." - John The Revelator, Feb. 18, 2001


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
13.01.2012, 03:43

@ Freddie555

Astressin-B

» » Right, but if someone like Mulugeta happens to find something like
» » Astressin-B, by accident, which attacks the problem at another point in
» the
» » cascade, we don't have to understand how or why it works, for it to
» work.
»
»
» This is why i think a cell based therapy (if scientists can get it to work)
» is the ideal solution. Chasing down chemical pathways here and there will
» take too long.

I FULLY AGREE with you there, KO! A cell based therapy has the advantage of starting out with the "building blocks" of the hair follicle, instead of bathing the scalp in some solution which you hope and pray will cause those building blocks to just appear out of thin air.

A cell based solution is VASTLY better than any topical, solution, chemical or drug (like Histogen, Follica, Astressin, Lithium, etc.) could ever be!




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
Freddie555

13.01.2012, 03:55

@ roger_that

Astressin-B

» I FULLY AGREE with you there, KO!

I wrote that, not KO.

He believes in Folica but i'm doubtful.

I imagine the ideal solution may be the combo of injecting the right cells + a harmone to kick start the process of hair formation.




Freddie555 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"When true Hair Multiplication comes, it will arise out of the East." - John The Revelator, Feb. 18, 2001


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
13.01.2012, 04:09

@ Freddie555

Astressin-B

» » I FULLY AGREE with you there, KO!
»
» I wrote that, not KO.

Sorry, Freddie. You both make a lot of sense, so I tend to confuse you two :-P

But credit where credit is due...

»
» He believes in Folica but i'm doubtful.

I agree with you more than him on Follica, then. I think of all of the companies people discuss here, Follica is by far the flimsiest, in fact I would even call it a shell company set up only as a quick-turnaround investment vehicle for entrepreneurs to make a fast buck with a clever exit strategy to turn a bunch of nothing into something appealing enough for some sucker to buy, and then the entrepreneurs will vanish and move on to the next project. Classic American house of cards investment ploy. It's PT Barnum, "The Music Man", Gordon Gekko, Enron, etc.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

13.01.2012, 05:00

@ roger_that

Astressin-B

I think a cell based solution will probably work. And if it does, it will probably be the best one. In theory we could take DP cells from Brad Pitt and implant it into our own scalp. (Immune privileged!)


I have faith in Follica primarily due to the quality of people they have put together, the rapid pace they're moving, and because their science looks promising. Whether it works or not is a different story.

If they're successful I think Follica will likely release it's results in a major academic journal like Nature. Growing follicles in mice put them in Nature, growing them in humans would make it a landmark event.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gettingthere

13.01.2012, 07:13

@ Freddie555

Astressin-B

» » Astressin-B has literally nothing to do with MPB. Totally different type
» of
» » hair loss.
»
» The underlying mechanism could be the same.
»
» The hair fails to cycle in both cases.

That's what I'm thinking and what's really interesting is that the mouse model they used has hair loss on the top, I'm not sure if I'm totally wrong but aren't most mouse models used in baldness studies completely bald? These models look a lot like a case of MPB but in mice. I think it's something to really think about. Plus if Astressin-b has the capability to heal someone with Cushings disease then it could be released pretty quickly, sorry if that sounds insensitive.




gettingthere is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

13.01.2012, 07:43

@ gettingthere

Astressin-B

» » » Astressin-B has literally nothing to do with MPB. Totally different
» type
» » of
» » » hair loss.
» »
» » The underlying mechanism could be the same.
» »
» » The hair fails to cycle in both cases.
»
» That's what I'm thinking and what's really interesting is that the mouse
» model they used has hair loss on the top, I'm not sure if I'm totally wrong
» but aren't most mouse models used in baldness studies completely bald?
» These models look a lot like a case of MPB but in mice. I think it's
» something to really think about. Plus if Astressin-b has the capability to
» heal someone with Cushings disease then it could be released pretty
» quickly, sorry if that sounds insensitive.

The mice were disposed to overproduce a stress hormone that made them lose their hair. Not DHT.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Freddie555

13.01.2012, 12:47

@ KO

Astressin-B

» The mice were disposed to overproduce a stress hormone that made them lose
» their hair. Not DHT.

I said the underlying mechanism.

DHT or Stress harmones may induce the same underlying mechanism resulting in hair loss. Or it could be that DHT mimic the effect of the stress harmone and astressin-B neutralises both.

We don't know until its tried in humans as there's no equivalent to MPB in mice.




Freddie555 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"When true Hair Multiplication comes, it will arise out of the East." - John The Revelator, Feb. 18, 2001


Post reply
Blue Angel

15.01.2012, 01:30

@ gettingthere

Astressin-B

Hi m8s,

New updates from Hairloss Research re Astressin-B

http://www.hairloss-research.com/norma-human-trials-now-in-progress/

They're not saying much, but still something to tell us that the trials are ongoing. Let's hope for the best, I am also pretty confident in this treatment.




Blue Angel is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

15.01.2012, 01:58

@ Blue Angel

Astressin-B

Are these like legitimate clinical trials or are they just some people injecting stuff into each other?


If they are legitimate please point me to the link to the trial page. I can't find it on clinicaltrials.gov




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
TaKeeLa

15.01.2012, 03:23

@ KO

Astressin-B

» Are these like legitimate clinical trials or are they just some people
» injecting stuff into each other?
»
»
» If they are legitimate please point me to the link to the trial page. I
» can't find it on clinicaltrials.gov

OMG! Do we really have to go through all this again? They tested it on mice that were bred to overproduce CRF ORIGINALLY, but they ALSO tested mice that were BORN completely bald. It still made the mice regrow their hair in both cases, so yes, this definitely has to do with MPB, or any type of balding to be honest. Anyways, they just started human trials today, so we will know for sure within the next year. Check it out.

http://www.hairloss-research.com/norma-human-trials-now-in-progress/




TaKeeLa is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

15.01.2012, 03:37

@ TaKeeLa

Astressin-B

» » Are these like legitimate clinical trials or are they just some people
» » injecting stuff into each other?
» »
» »
» » If they are legitimate please point me to the link to the trial page. I
» » can't find it on clinicaltrials.gov
»
» OMG! Do we really have to go through all this again? They tested it on mice
» that were bred to overproduce CRF ORIGINALLY, but they ALSO tested mice
» that were BORN completely bald. It still made the mice regrow their hair in
» both cases, so yes, this definitely has to do with MPB, or any type of
» balding to be honest. Anyways, they just started human trials today, so we
» will know for sure within the next year. Check it out.
»
» http://www.hairloss-research.com/norma-human-trials-now-in-progress/

Where are they listed on the clinicaltrials.gov website? Let me know.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Dogstar

15.01.2012, 11:35

@ KO

Astressin-B

»
» Where are they listed on the clinicaltrials.gov website? Let me know.

To be fair companies don't have to announce their clinical trials on there, Follica still haven't been on that site but we know they've had trials, so you can't use that site for proof that they're telling the truth.




Dogstar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

15.01.2012, 18:07

@ Dogstar

Astressin-B

» »
» » Where are they listed on the clinicaltrials.gov website? Let me know.
»
» To be fair companies don't have to announce their clinical trials on there,
» Follica still haven't been on that site but we know they've had trials, so
» you can't use that site for proof that they're telling the truth.

Follica's clinical trials are visible here:

www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu (they're being done in Germany)




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
15.01.2012, 18:17

@ KO

Astressin-B

»
» Follica's clinical trials are visible here:
»
» www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu (they're being done in Germany)

Link not working...




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

15.01.2012, 18:55

@ roger_that

Astressin-B

» »
» » Follica's clinical trials are visible here:
» »
» » www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu (they're being done in Germany)
»
» Link not working...

I have posted the link to the trials page many times on this site, directly in response to your posts. Please use the search fxn.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
15.01.2012, 20:28
(edited by roger_that, 15.01.2012, 20:49)

@ KO

Astressin-B

» I have posted the link to the trials page many times on this site, directly
» in response to your posts. Please use the search fxn.

I'm looking for updated information; if the website isn't working now, I can't get that even if I use HairSite search to find your old posts.

I'm not that impressed with a company that's experimenting with a plethora of different chemical "cocktails" anyway.

Anybody can just throw a bunch of sh*t together in a bottle, Lithium and growth factors and stuff and then swab it on people's heads. Just another random mixture of crap... 2 out of 15 patients grew hair in one of their experiments. That's 13 out of 15 who grew nothing. Capeesh? ;)

I don't know what it is about Follica that causes so many people to be spellbound with anticipation. (Actually I've come to the conclusion it's some subliminal combination of the name, "Follica" -- which is so evocative and enticing, and Daphne Zohar, who many probably find sexy.)

To me they seem just like 21st century snakeoil salesmen, a bit more sophisticated because they have some indeterminate input from Dr. Cotsarelis, but at the end of the day, it's still just a fairly random chemical cocktail, a shot in the dark.

It's like they keep throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

The chances of a "kitchen sink" chemical cocktail, even a very "educated" one, growing substantial hair will always be small. Sure, there's an outside chance, but it'll always be a small chance. The reason is that the growth and cycling of the human hair follicle is far, far more complicated than any of these companies can describe in a little abstract of one or two experiments.

The interrelations, pathways and biochemical feedback loops between all of these hormones, growth factors, receptors, enzymes, proteins, etc. is so complicated that any one of these "cocktails" will likely only address 15 or 20% of the entire picture, MAX. What about the rest? While they're activating one or two parts of the picture, what about all the other parts? And the truth is that you pretty much have to have ALL of the parts of the cycle activated in perfect order and perfect proportion, with perfect outside conditions, for involuted vellus hairs to be regenerated into cosmetically valuable terminal hairs in sufficient numbers to make a real phenotypic difference. Leave out any part of the whole and you're likely to be stuck pretty much at square 1, or very close to it.

On the flip-side, you have the little problem that every time you add another chemical to the mix, you increase the potential for negative (and possibly quite dangerous) side effects. And that's compounded still further by potential for drug interactions between the different parts of the mix.

Look, I don't want to sound like the eternal, bitter cynic or party pooper here. You get me wrong on that -- I'm not cynical, and I think there's a huge potential for a cure with live cell therapy (Replicel, Aderans) or tissue engineering (Lauster and the rest)... also, follicle splitting and stem cell manipulation as Gho is doing. In fact, judging by people's posts and the amount of cynicism here (with people threatening suicide every few weeks) I'm probably much more optimistic than many of the rest of the crew here when it comes to the potential for a cell-based cure.

But this "chemical cocktail" stuff is getting to be a tiresome farce. It just bespeaks a bunch of desperate companies, particularly Follica, barking up the wrong tree.

I have to admit though, the latest 3-month photo from Histogen looks quite promising, but remember, that is the ONE photo they decided to release, probably out of HUNDREDS that are substantially worse. By definition that photo would have to be their best result ever.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
Dogstar

15.01.2012, 20:32

@ KO

Astressin-B

»
» Follica's clinical trials are visible here:
»
» www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu (they're being done in Germany)

I know their phase 2 trial is on the European clinical trial register, but they're not on clinicaltrials.gov, which is what you were asking for with Astressin-B.

Like I said, companies don't have to give information out about their trials if they don't want to, that doesn't mean these people involved with Astressin-B are to be trusted though.




Dogstar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

15.01.2012, 21:55

@ Dogstar

Astressin-B

» »
» » Follica's clinical trials are visible here:
» »
» » www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu (they're being done in Germany)
»
» I know their phase 2 trial is on the European clinical trial register, but
» they're not on clinicaltrials.gov, which is what you were asking for with
» Astressin-B.
»
» Like I said, companies don't have to give information out about their
» trials if they don't want to, that doesn't mean these people involved with
» Astressin-B are to be trusted though.


There is simply no evidence from any kind of regulatory authority that they are going through clinical trials. It's not on the US website and it's not on the EU website. They say they're going through clinical trials, so why isn't it listed?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
15.01.2012, 21:57

@ KO

Astressin-B

» There is simply no evidence from any kind of regulatory authority that they
» are going through clinical trials. It's not on the US website and it's not
» on the EU website. They say they're going through clinical trials, so why
» isn't it listed?

You're right, KO. Personally, I don't believe that they are going through clinical trials now.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

15.01.2012, 22:07

@ roger_that

Astressin-B

» I'm not that impressed with a company that's experimenting with a plethora
» of different chemical "cocktails" anyway.

I do not believe Follica has really intended to impress you.


»
» Anybody can just throw a bunch of sh*t together in a bottle, Lithium and
» growth factors and stuff and then swab it on people's heads. Just another
» random mixture of crap... 2 out of 15 patients grew hair in one of their
» experiments. That's 13 out of 15 who grew nothing. Capeesh? ;)
»

Again, reading helps. You really seem to struggle with the concept, or perhaps the comprehension part. You realize that was the "control" group right. That means those people received no pharmacological intervention. Either you failed to grasp that, or despite knowing, you're ignoring it on purpose.

» I don't know what it is about Follica that causes so many people to be
» spellbound with anticipation. (Actually I've come to the conclusion it's
» some subliminal combination of the name, "Follica" -- which is so evocative
» and enticing, and Daphne Zohar, who many probably find sexy.)

Follica is respected because they have the best group of research talent out of any of the HM outfits. More than Histogen, more than Replicel. Daphne Zohar is indeed sexy, but you are probably just intimidated by that, hence the derision.



»
» To me they seem just like 21st century snakeoil salesmen, a bit more
» sophisticated because they have some indeterminate input from Dr.
» Cotsarelis, but at the end of the day, it's still just a fairly random
» chemical cocktail, a shot in the dark.

And you know this because? It is no different from Replicel in fact, they still have not explained how they're going to get over the problem of maintaining trichogencity in vitro.


»
» It's like they keep throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.
»
» The chances of a "kitchen sink" chemical cocktail, even a very "educated"
» one, growing substantial hair will always be small. Sure, there's an
» outside chance, but it'll always be a small chance. The reason is that the
» growth and cycling of the human hair follicle is far, far more complicated
» than any of these companies can describe in a little abstract of one or two
» experiments.

You really think they don't know that the cycling of the HF is complicated? Seriously? Millar, Cotsarelis, and Price have spent their whole lives researching this stuff. They know far more than you or anybody else on this forum. There is no need to be a "know it all". They are experts on this field who have published a range of literature. You seem to have something personal against them.

»
» The interrelations, pathways and biochemical feedback loops between all of
» these hormones, growth factors, receptors, enzymes, proteins, etc. is so
» complicated that any one of these "cocktails" will likely only address 15
» or 20% of the entire picture, MAX. What about the rest? While they're
» activating one or two parts of the picture, what about all the other parts?
» And the truth is that you pretty much have to have ALL of the parts of
» the cycle activated in perfect order and perfect proportion, with perfect
» outside conditions, for involuted vellus hairs to be regenerated into
» cosmetically valuable terminal hairs in sufficient numbers to make a real
» phenotypic difference. Leave out any part of the whole and you're likely
» to be stuck pretty much at square 1, or very close to it.

Again, see above.

»
» On the flip-side, you have the little problem that every time you add
» another chemical to the mix, you increase the potential for negative (and
» possibly quite dangerous) side effects. And that's compounded still
» further by potential for drug interactions between the different parts of
» the mix.

Again, see above.

»
» Look, I don't want to sound like the eternal, bitter cynic or party pooper
» here. You get me wrong on that -- I'm not cynical, and I think there's a
» huge potential for a cure with live cell therapy (Replicel, Aderans) or
» tissue engineering (Lauster and the rest)... also, follicle splitting and
» stem cell manipulation as Gho is doing. In fact, judging by people's posts
» and the amount of cynicism here (with people threatening suicide every few
» weeks) I'm probably much more optimistic than many of the rest of the crew
» here when it comes to the potential for a cell-based cure.

To date, there is no evidence that cell therapy works on humans.

»
» But this "chemical cocktail" stuff is getting to be a tiresome farce. It
» just bespeaks a bunch of desperate companies, particularly Follica, barking
» up the wrong tree.
»

Again, you know this because of what? Your deep experience in HL research?


Please don't take my harsh comments personally, but you really need to stop venting against Follica for no reason.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
15.01.2012, 22:48
(edited by roger_that, 15.01.2012, 23:21)

@ KO

Astressin-B

» Please don't take my harsh comments personally, but you really need to stop
» venting against Follica for no reason.

OK... although I don't think my skepticism is "for no reason".... I just see it differently than you do, that's all.

It's easy, though, to just take every point I make and flip it over into its rhetorical negative. Isn’t that really taking the lazy way out to make your argument?

You seem to ascribe to me some deep, hidden anti-Follica agenda or grudge.

I have absolutely nothing against Follica except for the fact that to me, it seems like the epitome of a typical American VC-backed flop company, something cobbled together to create an illustrious business career (and a few million dollars) for a few opportunistic entrepreneurs.

Look, I may be dead wrong on this... and if I am, I will humbly buy you dinner at a fancy restaurant in Paris or something. I am quite prepared to admit I'm wrong if I am proven wrong, and I should qualify myself with the caveat that EVERYTHING I'm saying or writing here is based just on my personal speculations and subjective interpretation of things.

But you know what? That's true for like 95% of the stuff written here, including almost all of what you contribute to this forum.

All I'm doing is taking this opportunity that the forum gives to me to anonymously "vent" at the fra*dulent "make a quick buck" capitalist system we have in this country, the same system that gave us the ginormous Wall Street Ponzi schemes like CDO's, credit-default swaps and mortgage-backed securities that wrecked most of the economy.

It's all part of an ongoing American disease of the psyche, the mentality that you take a risk and try to make a quick bundle of money off a bunch of gullible people.

I'm not saying Follica is an example of this, but it has *some* of the telltale signs... You have to be freaking blind not to see it.

I'm not threatened by anyone, I don't give a hoot about any particular person, Zohar, Cotsarelis, etc.

I have noticed a recurring pattern with Dr. Cotsarelis though, and it goes like this:

1. Suddenly you see an article either in the NY Times, or, more likely, in some British tabloid newspaper, headlined something like, "Scientist discovers new clues to Male Pattern Baldness", with a subtitle something like, "Cure possibly 5 years away". The NY Times or London Times will usually have a serious-sounding headline; if it's one of the British tabloids, the headline will be cheesier, and possibly contain a pun or a photo which mildly mocks balding people.

2. You read the article and discover it is another one of Dr. Cotsarelis' "discoveries". Then you think back and seem to remember a similar article about a possible "cure", about 6 months to a year ago, also mentioning Dr. Cotsarelis, but the discovery was something different... well, kind of the same but different. Within the next few months, there will also be 1 or 2 brief television reports about the "discovery", on CNN and/or one of the major networks.

3. There then commences a flood of excitement in the hairloss community, with a flurry of enthusiastic articles and frenzied debates on the various hairloss websites and boards... This continues indefinitely.

4. Sometime after the so-called "discovery" is announced, a medical journal article is published, which gives more facts, but doesn't shed too much more light on what was already announced, and maybe just muddies the water still further. The "new" discovery is different... but somehow the same as all the older discoveries.

5. Sometime within about a year of the discovery's announcement in the media, maybe more, there is news that Dr. Cotsarelis has signed yet another deal with another company -- either he's become a "scientific advisor" to a new start-up, or he's sold the rights to something to another company, or he's collaborating with this or that new venture, to somehow commercialize the great new "discovery" he's made. With all these commercial ventures, contracts, board memberships, and licenses Dr. Cotsarelis has accrued for all of these valuable "discoveries", I have to ask myself some obvious questions, but I won't do that here, I'll leave it to you.

I just have to ask, though, with all that media coverage he suddenly gets coming IMMEDIATELY after these "discoveries", I wonder how that is happening. How the &%^$# do the media know exactly after Dr. Cotsarelis makes one of these discoveries, that he's made it?

Are they camped out and embedded in his lab at the University of Pennsylvania, sleeping on a cot and monitoring his work 24/7?

Or is he calling them to get the coverage?

And if he is, I re-submit to you event #5 on the above list: the inevitable commercialization or parlaying of every "disocvery" into some business opportunity.


Does anyone else see the connection between the media coverage and that part of the whole thing?

If this cycle (1-5 above) had happened once with clear results from Dr. Cotsarelis and something concrete to show for it, I'd be the first to call the good doctor brilliant, and genuflect in his presence.

But, the above chain of events has happened not just once, but many times before, almost exactly as related above, with steps 1-5 occurring and recurring like clockwork, again and again in an endless cycle.

Take steps 1-5 above, complete in full.

Then repeat.

And repeat.

And repeat.

And repeat.

Given the above, I think people have the right to be skeptical.

One more thing to add: As soon as Dr. Mulugeta's findings of hair growth from Astressin-B were announced in the media, what happened? Dr. Cotsarelis was interviewed and he basically dismissed Dr. Cotsarelis' findings as irrelevant for most hairloss sufferers, saying if there was hair growth, the treatment could only possibly be useful for stress-induced baldness, not for MPB.

Uhhhh.... really, doctor?

Isn't it possible that both stress-induced hairloss and MPB both feed into the same, or similar, final common biochemical pathway, or that Astressin-B can somehow block the effects of DHT, or positively stimulate MPB-miniaturized follicles in some way that overrides DHT's effects? Even I know that's possible from taking undergraduate biochemistry.

How could he possibly "know" that Astressin-B wouldn't work without taking a closer look at it?

I find his inclination to deliver a hasty negative verdict on another researcher's findings to be a bit self-serving.

And no, unlike some on this board, I do not regard Dr. Cotsarelis as some kind of hairloss Zeus, sent down from the clouds with infinite brilliance to cure us. He's just an M.D. hairloss researcher with some very savvy PR and media skills, and insofar as his ability to produce real-world results, thus far he has come up a bit short.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

16.01.2012, 02:12

@ roger_that

Astressin-B

As I've pointed out before, there is nothing wrong with being skeptical. I'm fairly skeptical on Follica as well, I have trouble believing that something as simple as dermabrasion+lithium would work. But you take it to another extreme, you have issues with *everything* about Follica. You dont' like Zohar's background, you don't like the fact that Cots commercialized the tech, you don't like the idea of lithium, you think it won't pass the FDA process, you think it's toxic etc.


» I'm not saying Follica is an example of this, but it has *some* of the
» telltale signs... You have to be freaking blind not to see it.

I don't see anything unethical or suspicious in whatever Follica has done. They seem very professional and honest to me.

»
» 1. Suddenly you see an article either in the NY Times, or, more likely, in
» some British tabloid newspaper, headlined something like, "Scientist
» discovers new clues to Male Pattern Baldness", with a subtitle something
» like, "Cure possibly 5 years away". The NY Times or London Times will
» usually have a serious-sounding headline; if it's one of the British
» tabloids, the headline will be cheesier, and possibly contain a pun or a
» photo which mildly mocks balding people.
»

I'm going to point out that Cotsarelis doesn't come up with these headlines, even the author of the article doesn't do that. Headlines are written by a third person. Yet you hold it against him.


» 2. You read the article and discover it is another one of Dr. Cotsarelis'
» "discoveries". Then you think back and seem to remember a similar article
» about a possible "cure", about 6 months to a year ago, also mentioning Dr.
» Cotsarelis, but the discovery was something different... well, kind of the
» same but different. Within the next few months, there will also be 1 or 2
» brief television reports about the "discovery", on CNN and/or one of the
» major networks.
»

Cotsarelis is a basic scientist who's come up with a lot of good and interesting discoveries, starting when he was a postdoc in 1990. Even his paper published in 2011 was pretty interesting (MPB men still retain stem cells), and it had nothing to do with Follica. Furthermore, the hair loss research community is pretty small, and if he's especially productive, he'll get a lot of attention.



» 3. There then commences a flood of excitement in the hairloss community,
» with a flurry of enthusiastic articles and frenzied debates on the various
» hairloss websites and boards... This continues indefinitely.

Also not Cotsarelis' fault, yet you continue to hold it against him.


» 4. Sometime after the so-called "discovery" is announced, a medical
» journal article is published, which gives more facts, but doesn't shed too
» much more light on what was already announced, and maybe just muddies the
» water still further. The "new" discovery is different... but somehow the
» same as all the older discoveries.

Any specific examples?


» 5. Sometime within about a year of the discovery's announcement in the
» media, maybe more, there is news that Dr. Cotsarelis has signed yet another
» deal with another company -- either he's become a "scientific advisor" to a
» new start-up, or he's sold the rights to something to another company, or
» he's collaborating with this or that new venture, to somehow commercialize
» the great new "discovery" he's made. With all these commercial ventures,
» contracts, board memberships, and licenses Dr. Cotsarelis has accrued for
» all of these valuable "discoveries", I have to ask myself some obvious
» questions, but I won't do that here, I'll leave it to you.
»

Quite common for scholars at elite universities to consult for outside organisations, in biosciences, very relevant. You might remember some prominent US professors got in trouble for advising Gaddafi.

» I just have to ask, though, with all that media coverage he suddenly gets
» coming IMMEDIATELY after these "discoveries", I wonder how that is
» happening. How the &%^$# do the media know exactly after Dr. Cotsarelis
» makes one of these discoveries, that he's made it?
»
» Are they camped out and embedded in his lab at the University of
» Pennsylvania, sleeping on a cot and monitoring his work 24/7?
»
» Or is he calling them to get the coverage?
»

I don't think the media has gone crazy at all. To us in the hair loss community it seems like it, but apart from a couple of appearances around 07 and 05, he has not been Paris Hilton of Hair loss as you're suggesting.

» And if he is, I re-submit to you event #5 on the above list: the
» inevitable commercialization or parlaying of every "disocvery" into some
» business opportunity.
»

I welcome commercialization of basic science. Good on him. A lot more of this needs to happen throughout the biosciences.


»
» One more thing to add: As soon as Dr. Mulugeta's findings of hair
» growth from Astressin-B were announced in the media, what happened? Dr.
» Cotsarelis was interviewed and he basically dismissed Dr. Cotsarelis'
» findings as irrelevant for most hairloss sufferers, saying if there was
» hair growth, the treatment could only possibly be useful for stress-induced
» baldness, not for MPB.
»

The fact is, he's quite right. Astressin-B has been developed for stress-induced hair loss, and not MPB. He's is very correct to be skeptical and tamp down expectations. I don't think even Mulugeta considers Astressin-B a treatment for MPB (somethign Mulugeta might have a personal interest in?). Why hasn't Mulugeta gone forward with pursuing it as a treatment for MPB?

»
» Isn't it possible that both stress-induced hairloss and MPB both feed into
» the same, or similar, final common biochemical pathway, or that Astressin-B
» can somehow block the effects of DHT, or positively stimulate
» MPB-miniaturized follicles in some way that overrides DHT's effects? Even
» I know that's possible from taking undergraduate biochemistry.
»

Is it possible? Maybe, maybe not, nobody knows yet you seem to consider it a serious MPB prospect. Ironic how you're so very skeptical of Follica, but when it comes to Astressin-B, your skepticism disappears. Sounds personal.

» How could he possibly "know" that Astressin-B wouldn't work without taking
» a closer look at it?

Perhaps because as a specialist in Hair follicles, he might understand the different pathways in play?

» And no, unlike some on this board, I do not regard Dr. Cotsarelis as some
» kind of hairloss Zeus, sent down from the clouds with infinite brilliance
» to cure us. He's just an M.D. hairloss researcher with some very savvy PR
» and media skills, and insofar as his ability to produce real-world results,
» thus far he has come up a bit short.


No one thinks he's Zeus, just an excellent scientist doing good basic science who is now seeing his work being translated to the clinic. Yet you resent him for getting a lot of publicity. Don't know what to tell you. If you're pessimistic on Follica, at least wait for them to fail (or redo Phase 2 trials).




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Dogstar

16.01.2012, 09:08

@ KO

Astressin-B

»
»
» There is simply no evidence from any kind of regulatory authority that they
» are going through clinical trials. It's not on the US website and it's not
» on the EU website. They say they're going through clinical trials, so why
» isn't it listed?

And there wasn't any evidence for Follica going through clinical trials until they popped up in Germany doing phase II trials, I don't know why you aren't getting that, I'm not disagreeing with you rightly questioning these people involved with Astressin-B, I'm just saying that not disclosing any information on the regulatory websites doesn't prove anything, companies don't have to make any of that information public.




Dogstar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

16.01.2012, 09:37

@ Dogstar

Astressin-B

»
» And there wasn't any evidence for Follica going through clinical trials
» until they popped up in Germany doing phase II trials, I don't know why you
» aren't getting that, I'm not disagreeing with you rightly questioning these
» people involved with Astressin-B, I'm just saying that not disclosing any
» information on the regulatory websites doesn't prove anything, companies
» don't have to make any of that information public.


Your example makes no sense. The fact that Follica is going through clinical trials is clearly documented and visible for all to see. Same with Aderans, Histogen, Replicel, and Bimatoprost. Astressin-B, no such evidence exists.


They say they are going through clinical trials, so they have certainly disclosed that information it is not secret, but on a regulatory website it is absent....




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Dogstar

16.01.2012, 18:46

@ KO

Astressin-B

»
» Your example makes no sense. The fact that Follica is going through
» clinical trials is clearly documented and visible for all to see.
»
»

Could you please give me a link to the clearly documented, visible for all to see, phase 1 clinical trial Follica went through.

Here's some interesting articles explaining why companies don't have to make information available to the public, there's plenty more if you still don't understand what I'm saying.

http://www.pharmalot.com/2011/10/all-trial-data-must-be-disclosed-rogawski-explains/

http://www.pharma-design.co.uk/pharmaceutical-news/disclosure-by-drug-companies-of-results-of-clinical-trials-not-necessary-when-they-dont-lead-to-product-development-or-commercialisation-but-maybe-useful-for-all-parties-involved/




Dogstar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

16.01.2012, 19:34

@ Dogstar

Astressin-B

Firms do not have to disclose "results", we're not talking results here, we're talking about evidence the trial is happening in the first place. For example, Follica hasn't released results of P2, but we know it happened.


They've said they're going through clinical trials, so it is not secret and have released the information. But no record exists. This is the opposite of Follica, who were not admitting to clinical trials despite them actually happening.


Also, I don't believe Follica had a Phase I trial.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Freddie555

17.01.2012, 02:58

@ KO

Astressin-B

i find it unbelievable that no records can exist when their results have to be reported to the govt (German equivalent of the FDA).

surely the results will be in the public domain.

would someone in Germany contact their equivalent of the FDA specifically requesting information on the results of this trial.

is there such a thing as doing an FDA trial and keeping the results a secret? what if the results show there's a high risk of some side effect - wouldn't the people who enrolled in the trial have a right to know?




Freddie555 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"When true Hair Multiplication comes, it will arise out of the East." - John The Revelator, Feb. 18, 2001


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
17.01.2012, 03:38

@ Freddie555

Astressin-B

» i find it unbelievable that no records can exist when their results have to
» be reported to the govt (German equivalent of the FDA).
»
» surely the results will be in the public domain.
»
» would someone in Germany contact their equivalent of the FDA specifically
» requesting information on the results of this trial.
»
» is there such a thing as doing an FDA trial and keeping the results a
» secret? what if the results show there's a high risk of some side effect -
» wouldn't the people who enrolled in the trial have a right to know?


The USA, Canada, UK and all major countries of the EU, Germany included, have a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) or similar legislation which should enable anyone to request confirmation of trials from the FDA or its equivalent in another country. No, they won't release proprietary details of the company's technology, but they have to release basic information as to whether or not trials are being conducted.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

17.01.2012, 04:11

@ Freddie555

Astressin-B

» i find it unbelievable that no records can exist when their results have to
» be reported to the govt (German equivalent of the FDA).
»
» surely the results will be in the public domain.
»
» would someone in Germany contact their equivalent of the FDA specifically
» requesting information on the results of this trial.
»
» is there such a thing as doing an FDA trial and keeping the results a
» secret? what if the results show there's a high risk of some side effect -
» wouldn't the people who enrolled in the trial have a right to know?


Nope, results can stay secret even if a trial happened. Happens all the time.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gettingthere

17.01.2012, 22:32

@ gettingthere

Astressin-B

» Not trying to start a storm of angry comments but in all honesty I think
» there is a lot of promise for Astressin-B. If you notice, those mice lost
» hair in a form that looked a lot like MPB. It was on top of their backs as
» humans lose on top of their heads. I feel like there could be a much
» deeper connection with CRF to hairloss than people think but that's just my
» two cents.

What I was getting at was that the models of these mice show an interesting pattern of losing the hair on top while the mouse models I feel are typically used are completely void of hair so I feel like this really could be something, possibly a cure.




gettingthere is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
samt23

17.01.2012, 23:17

@ KO

Astressin-B

» Firms do not have to disclose "results", we're not talking results here,
» we're talking about evidence the trial is happening in the first place. For
» example, Follica hasn't released results of P2, but we know it happened.
»
»
» They've said they're going through clinical trials, so it is not secret and
» have released the information. But no record exists. This is the opposite
» of Follica, who were not admitting to clinical trials despite them actually
» happening.
»
»
» Also, I don't believe Follica had a Phase I trial.

Why would they fake a clinical trial. Unless they're no-life nerds with no life whatsoever, why would they they do that.




samt23 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
cal

18.01.2012, 17:55

@ samt23

Astressin-B

Follica has about as much incentive to fake a clinical trial as you or I do.

What doesn't seem to sink in to half the members around here is that Follica isn't trying to raise money. They haven't been trying for years. The money is not only there when their company stock price goes up for bullsh*tting the press about making progress. It's not only there when the public perception of their names go up from bullsh*tting the press like Cotsarelis does. All they have to do is use the existing money to try to make a whole lot more of it.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
TaKeeLa

18.01.2012, 18:49

@ cal

Astressin-B

» Follica has about as much incentive to fake a clinical trial as you or I
» do.
»
» What doesn't seem to sink in to half the members around here is that
» Follica isn't trying to raise money. They haven't been trying for years.
» The money is not only there when their company stock price goes up for
» bullsh*tting the press about making progress. It's not only there when the
» public perception of their names go up from bullsh*tting the press like
» Cotsarelis does. All they have to do is use the existing money to try to
» make a whole lot more of it.

Well they just released another update stating that this week the first injections were scheduled to take place and did not occur because they don't quite have all the necessary forms/documentation to begin. I'm sure they will update us again when they start.

And this thread specifically states Astressin-b, so I don't know why it always gets cluttered up with people saying crap about Follica, Replicel, other things etc. You have your own threads for that, go bicker there not here please.




TaKeeLa is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

19.01.2012, 03:28

@ cal

Astressin-B

» Follica has about as much incentive to fake a clinical trial as you or I
» do.
»
» What doesn't seem to sink in to half the members around here is that
» Follica isn't trying to raise money. They haven't been trying for years.
» The money is not only there when their company stock price goes up for
» bullsh*tting the press about making progress. It's not only there when the
» public perception of their names go up from bullsh*tting the press like
» Cotsarelis does. All they have to do is use the existing money to try to
» make a whole lot more of it.


Huh? What stock price?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
cal

19.01.2012, 09:34

@ KO

Astressin-B

That was part of my point. Follica is privately funded so they don't have any incentive to do certain things that other companies do to boost their stock prices.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
doubleC

09.02.2012, 18:01

@ gettingthere

Astressin-B

well guys, it looks like the astressin b 'human trials' have come to an end before they even began. what a shame. something that appears to have potential and they're not even going to get to try it on humans because of some stupid patent. didn't mulugetta or whatever discover astressin b a long time ago? what's the hold up? '5 or 10 years down the road' i'm assuming...... will we ever hear anything different?




doubleC is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
samt23

09.02.2012, 18:39

@ doubleC

Astressin-B

» well guys, it looks like the astressin b 'human trials' have come to an end
» before they even began. what a shame. something that appears to have
» potential and they're not even going to get to try it on humans because of
» some stupid patent. didn't mulugetta or whatever discover astressin b a
» long time ago? what's the hold up? '5 or 10 years down the road' i'm
» assuming...... will we ever hear anything different?

That's pretty f*cking pathetic.

There's always something holding people back from making progress. Land of freedom my 4ss.




samt23 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

09.02.2012, 18:53

@ samt23

Astressin-B

Surprise!!!


Or not.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Iron_Man

09.02.2012, 19:05

@ samt23

Astressin-B

» » well guys, it looks like the astressin b 'human trials' have come to an
» end
» » before they even began. what a shame. something that appears to have
» » potential and they're not even going to get to try it on humans because
» of
» » some stupid patent. didn't mulugetta or whatever discover astressin b a
» » long time ago? what's the hold up? '5 or 10 years down the road' i'm
» » assuming...... will we ever hear anything different?
»
» That's pretty f*cking pathetic.
»
» There's always something holding people back from making progress. Land of
» freedom my 4ss.

hmmm, what exactly happened?




Iron_Man is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
I documented the world’s 1st day-by-day (HST) donor hair regeneration process …


Post reply
Freddie555

10.02.2012, 02:47

@ Iron_Man

Astressin-B

the researchers are not marketing (selling) anything so how can a patent hold them up. There is no product for sale.

The patent issue sounds nonsensical.

What source did you get that info from?

As for Folica, if they have done phase II trials on public persons, then Freedom of Information request should be sufficient to know what the outcome was. Anyone in Germany care to write to the FDA equivalent there and ask for disclosure on the outcome of the trials.

And while you're at it, see if you can get anything on Roland Lauster's alleged human trials.




Freddie555 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"When true Hair Multiplication comes, it will arise out of the East." - John The Revelator, Feb. 18, 2001


Post reply
georgex6

GREECE ATHENS,
11.02.2012, 14:05

@ Freddie555

Astressin-B

» the researchers are not marketing (selling) anything so how can a patent
» hold them up. There is no product for sale.
»
» The patent issue sounds nonsensical.
»
» What source did you get that info from?
»
» As for Folica, if they have done phase II trials on public persons, then
» Freedom of Information request should be sufficient to know what the
» outcome was. Anyone in Germany care to write to the FDA equivalent there
» and ask for disclosure on the outcome of the trials.
»
» And while you're at it, see if you can get anything on Roland Lauster's
» alleged human trials.



Sarah Campeau February 8, 2012 at 11:21 am
Sorry for the short reply everyone, but Ferbie, you are spot on.

While there is not such thing as having exclusive rights for type of element, there are patent issues that at this moment are preventing any kind of progress bringing the project forward.

More on this later as for legal reasons there isn’t much else I can say on this subject.




georgex6 is located in GREECE ATHENS and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Freddie555

12.02.2012, 08:53

@ georgex6

Astressin-B

Good grief.

So what does it mean? Their human trials have been terminated?

I still don't understand how a patent can be stopping them from doing research on it. They are not selling any product.

A patent prevents someone else from copying your stuff and selling it. I've never heard of a patent preventing someone from doing research on something.




Freddie555 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"When true Hair Multiplication comes, it will arise out of the East." - John The Revelator, Feb. 18, 2001


Post reply
samt23

12.02.2012, 08:58

@ Freddie555

Astressin-B

I bet that blog was made by some troll on Hairsite forum. The blog didn't look legit in the first place ... they're probably laughing their ass off right now.




samt23 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


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