Hair Loss Forum - Nizoral IS a DHT blocker
instant hair thickening fibers scalp pigmentation tattoo

Log in | User | Register

Thread view  Order  «  
 

featured hair transplant results & topics
free hair transplant consultations in London, Los Angeles, New York, and cities worldwide

-Dr. Baubac (Alvi Armani) latest patient results 3115 grafts.
-Hasson & Wong: 4050 grafts, 1 year, strip.
-Hairman2's 2500 grafts FUE at HDC Cyprus.

-Dr. Arvind taking Scalp Micro Pigmentation to the test.
-Dr. Ray Woods: world's 1st FUE + BHT scar repair!

-Dr. Umar's UGraft: find out why it is superior.
-Dr. Bisanga 2924 grafts FUE, 8 months.
-Dr. Arvind presentations at ISHRS & AAHRS conference.
-Dr. Baubac (Alvi Armani): redefining the best in artistry.

-Dr. Jones: 6000 grafts FUE megasession, 4 months.

chiaHead

14.08.2007, 20:03
 

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker (Topicals & Shampoos)

Nizoral is a DHT blocker. Seems to be some debate on this.

See the list of Anti-Androgen drugs here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiandrogen

DHT is an Androgen:
"Dihydrotestosterone (DHT): a metabolite of testosterone, and a more potent androgen than testosterone in that it binds more strongly to androgen receptors"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen




chiaHead is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
03.09.2007, 22:02
(edited by HanginInThere, 03.09.2007, 22:23)

@ Bryan

The fine art of COMMUNICATION: a lost art?

I strongly suggest that you the same terms used by doctors and scientists,
because their terminology is clear and unambiguous.

Case in point: I've seen at least a couple of people in just the last day
or two refer to "DHT blockers", and farther along in their posts I realized
they were talking about finasteride and dutasteride. 'Nuff said.

Really? That is shocking

I would petition to have them banned, for being ignorant and not sticking to Bryans Rules




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
Bryan

03.09.2007, 21:28

@ HanginInThere

The fine art of COMMUNICATION: a lost art?

I strongly suggest that you the same terms used by doctors and scientists, because their terminology is clear and unambiguous.

Case in point: I've seen at least a couple of people in just the last day or two refer to "DHT blockers", and farther along in their posts I realized they were talking about finasteride and dutasteride. 'Nuff said.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
03.09.2007, 21:00

@ Bryan

again professor give us a break

If a drug inhibits the receptor from binding to DHT, isn't it
essentially
blocking DHT? Whether it inhibits the receptor site or binds to it
itself, it is still stopping DHT from binding. Right?

Yes, but describing it that way gives the false impression that
ketoconazole somehow targets DHT, which it doesn't. Just use the
correct terminology: it's an androgen receptor blocker, or antiandrogen.

DHT is considered an androgen, thus androgen receptor blockers block DHT,

same thing with nettles pygeum, Saw Palmetto they block androgens which includes DHT at the receptor sites of the hair follicles and prostate...............so to me that means they block DHT, one way or another, as well as being 5 AR inhibitors

screaming about calling them DHT blockers, is a waste of time, either they help with hair loss or they dont, thats the only important issue, splitting hairs about what to call them, is pointless

you can sit there until the cows come home debating how something works, the question is DOES IT WORK...............

to me the most important questions about any topical or supplement are two questions

1) does it have serious or longterm side effects,
2) does it WORK on that person, stop his hair loss or cause regrowth

anything else, is to me a bit of a time waster

I can take Saw Palmetto for example, ..........guy trys it,,,,,,,,me......and it took my hair loss from 200 per day down to about 20 in about 2 weeks. Side effects...................none that I noticed, no decrease in libido, no heart palpitations, no SHED that lasted for a month, nothing only positive results.

Now guys can sit there for years debating how exactly it works, whether it decreases DHT in the blood, by inhibiting 5 AR, whether it blocks androgrens at the receptor site, etc, etc , but really, if there are no long term side effects and IT WORKS...................WHO REALLY CARES, HOW? I CERTAINLY DONT

do you know exactly how your car engine works down to the minute details, the power steering anti lock brakes, 99 percent of the people could give a rats ass, as long as the CAR RUNS, AND RUNS CORRECTLY ........



you need to get a hobby or something




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
Bryan

03.09.2007, 16:41

@ chiaHead

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

If a drug inhibits the receptor from binding to DHT, isn't it essentially
blocking DHT? Whether it inhibits the receptor site or binds to it
itself, it is still stopping DHT from binding. Right?

Yes, but describing it that way gives the false impression that ketoconazole somehow targets DHT, which it doesn't. Just use the correct terminology: it's an androgen receptor blocker, or antiandrogen.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
chiaHead

03.09.2007, 16:12

@ Jk1

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

NO NO NO nizoral is not a DHT blocker :)

If a drug inhibits the receptor from binding to DHT, isn't it essentially blocking DHT? Whether it inhibits the receptor site or binds to it itself, it is still stopping DHT from binding. Right?




chiaHead is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
03.09.2007, 08:27

@ Jk1

Hanging?

GC1961
Im not attacking you , im just posting the reasoning and logic behind my
post in response to the topic in this thread.

Gc1961 you postulated that some of it must absorb and hence have systemic
effects. Again that is totally wrong and if you look at the original
nizoral and extina studies you will see that they found no measurable
systemic absorption of Ketoconazole in the blood.

Fine, if you think your words vs all the people cited in the studies can
discredit the most recent and relevant and detailed study regarding
topical ketoconazole in regards to MPB.

I guess the readers can read all the above and the japan study and believe
what they like. The truth will come out on its own i don't have to
re-iterate or attack anyone to do that.

By the way their are more studies on the effect of Nizoral shampoo and
increasing hair shaft diameter than the japan one, the reason the japan
one is important is that they researched the mode of action and proved it
for the 1st time and its the latest of more research to come.

The links i posted above are also very interesting as they state that
malaseaz forfoa fungus on the scalp that cause dandruff also cause an
inflamatroy response to hair follcles and put them into apoptosis. So
Nizoral suppresses this fungus, hence it has a non androgenetic fungus
supression, an androgen receptor reduction and another unique mode of
action.

But as a topical it is not a DHT blocker or systemic antiandrogen !!!



Hanging

It is important we discuss the real mode of action and the differences
between
topical androgen receptor sensitivity action and systemic DHT
blockers/anti androgens.

Basically becuase you will get no systemic side effects like the liver
damage some people fear munger about with Keto topicals !!!!

i have seen studies saying that interal keto is dangerous, but none that say it is absorbed to any significant degree, systemically, when applied topically

all i know is im seeing amazing results so im happy




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
Jk1

03.09.2007, 08:20

@ brm

Hanging?

GC1961
Im not attacking you , im just posting the reasoning and logic behind my post in response to the topic in this thread.

Gc1961 you postulated that some of it must absorb and hence have systemic effects. Again that is totally wrong and if you look at the original nizoral and extina studies you will see that they found no measurable systemic absorption of Ketoconazole in the blood.

Fine, if you think your words vs all the people cited in the studies can discredit the most recent and relevant and detailed study regarding topical ketoconazole in regards to MPB.

I guess the readers can read all the above and the japan study and believe what they like. The truth will come out on its own i don't have to re-iterate or attack anyone to do that.

By the way their are more studies on the effect of Nizoral shampoo and increasing hair shaft diameter than the japan one, the reason the japan one is important is that they researched the mode of action and proved it for the 1st time and its the latest of more research to come.

The links i posted above are also very interesting as they state that malaseaz forfoa fungus on the scalp that cause dandruff also cause an inflamatroy response to hair follcles and put them into apoptosis. So Nizoral suppresses this fungus, hence it has a non androgenetic fungus supression, an androgen receptor reduction and another unique mode of action.

But as a topical it is not a DHT blocker or systemic antiandrogen !!!



Hanging

It is important we discuss the real mode of action and the differences between
topical androgen receptor sensitivity action and systemic DHT blockers/anti androgens.

Basically becuase you will get no systemic side effects like the liver damage some people fear munger about with Keto topicals !!!!




Jk1 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
brm

his room,
31.08.2007, 15:46

@ Jk1

Hanging?

Please hanging, can ou remind me the effects you noticed with 2% nizoral SHAMPOO when you used it.
1) How long did you use it?
2) How often did you use it?
3) For how log did you let it sit on the scalp before rinsing?
4) What effects: shedding (and to what extent)? dry hair or greasy hair? Anything else?
5)How long did it take for things to be back to normal once you stopped?

Thank you.




brm is located in HIS ROOM and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
31.08.2007, 13:43

@ gc1961

I agree with Bryan on this one.....

I damned sure will express my opinion of the vulgar,
sloppy, uneducated use of manufactured pseudo-medical terms on this
forum.

As opposed to the educated use of manufactured pseudo-medical terms?

Here is a term for you: douche bag. Allow me use it in an uneducated
and
vulgar manner: You are a douche bag. :-D Just kidding man. :-P

Although it pains me, we do need to be precise on the mechanisms at play.

Just becuase there are thousands of websites that refer to DHT Blockers,
or that claim you can grow a 20-inch penis, or that you can eat Krispy
Kreame and lose weight at the same time, doesn't make it true.

Whats the difference
if it is blocking DHT at the androgen receptors, its a DHT blocker, even though it may also block the production of DHT by being a 5 AR inhibitor, Saw Palmetto, for example. seems to do a little of both




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
gc1961

31.08.2007, 13:14

@ gc1961

Ketoconazole cell receptor binding

... here is the net. I am not going to type all my points again. Here is
the summary.

1. The japanese paper is "lite-science"; you should read all the
keto/nizoral research before attempting to argue with me on this
subject

2. The hair stimulant reference that they cite is laughable and almost
certainly nothing to do with fighting MPB

3. You are confused about topical and systemic. Topical is a mode of
application that we use to try to localize the impact of a potentially
dangerous drug in our fight against MPB. Topical does not mean that the
drug is not absorbed, it has to be in order to work. It does mean that
we
are trying to limit the systemic increase of the the drug
concentration.
The reason topicals work is that the chemical pathways act out locally
on/in the hair cells, i.e. INTERNALLY. This is another area where we
need
clarity on our language.

4. Modes of action. Maybe their is some receptor down-regulation; I
think
the paper is not detailed enough. The hair stimulant refernce is crap.
Inflammatory impact of the immune response is quite interesting; I
suggest
you go read Scientific American from about 3 months ago on this subject.


5. Go read the WHO paper "Endocrine Disruptors"; it will give you some
good basic material on the major mechanism of ketoconazole on the
hormone
system.

6. Don't attack me with one poor piece of research and loose language.
Go
and do you homework.

7. I will not comment on you crappy posts again until you get educated
and
stop regurgitating nonsense. I advise others to do likewise.

gc.

In response to my own post, there does appear to be evidence that in
addition to impacting hormone pathways, Ketoconazole does bind to a wide
variety of cell receptors....

Ketoconazole binds to the human androgen receptor.Eil C.
Department of Internal Medicine, Naval Hospital, Bethesda, Maryland.

Ketoconazole, an imidazole anti-fungal agent, has often produced features
of androgen deficiency including decreased libido, gynecomastia,
impotence, oligospermia, and decreased testosterone levels, in men being
treated for chronic mycotic infections. Based on these potent effects on
gonadal function in vivo as well as previous work in vitro demonstrating
affinity of ketoconazole for receptor proteins for glucocorticoids and
1,25(OH)2 vitamin D3 and for sex steroid binding globulin (SSBG), the
binding of ketoconazole to human androgen receptors (AR) in vitro was also
examined. Ketoconazole competition with [3H]methyltrienolone (R1881) for
androgen binding sites in dispersed, intact cultured human skin
fibroblasts was determined at 22 degrees C. Fifty percent displacement of
[3H]R1881 binding to AR was achieved by 6.4 +/- 1.8 (SE) x 10(-5) M
ketoconazole. Additional binding studies performed with ketoconazole in
the presence of increasing amounts of [3H]R1881 showed that the
interaction of ketoconazole with AR was competitive when the data were
analyzed by the Scatchard method. It should be noted, however, that the
dose of ketoconazole required for 50% occupancy of the androgen receptor
is not likely to be achieved in vivo, at least in plasma. Finally,
androgen binding studies performed with other imidazoles, such as
clotrimazole, miconazole, and fluconozole, revealed that in this class of
compounds only ketoconazole appears to interact with the androgen
receptor. Ketoconazole appears to be the first example of a non-steroidal
compound which binds competitively to both SSBG and multiple steroid
hormone receptors, suggesting that the ligand binding sites of these
proteins share some features in common.

PMID: 1526623 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Glocucorticoid-receptor and Vit D-receptor binding may also be interesting in hair loss.

Vitamin D is really a hormone; according to how we define vitamins and hormones.




gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gc1961

31.08.2007, 13:10

@ gc1961

Ketoconazole cell receptor binding

... here is the net. I am not going to type all my points again. Here is
the summary.

1. The japanese paper is "lite-science"; you should read all the
keto/nizoral research before attempting to argue with me on this subject

2. The hair stimulant reference that they cite is laughable and almost
certainly nothing to do with fighting MPB

3. You are confused about topical and systemic. Topical is a mode of
application that we use to try to localize the impact of a potentially
dangerous drug in our fight against MPB. Topical does not mean that the
drug is not absorbed, it has to be in order to work. It does mean that we
are trying to limit the systemic increase of the the drug concentration.
The reason topicals work is that the chemical pathways act out locally
on/in the hair cells, i.e. INTERNALLY. This is another area where we need
clarity on our language.

4. Modes of action. Maybe their is some receptor down-regulation; I think
the paper is not detailed enough. The hair stimulant refernce is crap.
Inflammatory impact of the immune response is quite interesting; I suggest
you go read Scientific American from about 3 months ago on this subject.

5. Go read the WHO paper "Endocrine Disruptors"; it will give you some
good basic material on the major mechanism of ketoconazole on the hormone
system.

6. Don't attack me with one poor piece of research and loose language. Go
and do you homework.

7. I will not comment on you crappy posts again until you get educated and
stop regurgitating nonsense. I advise others to do likewise.

gc.

In response to my own post, there does appear to be evidence that in addition to impacting hormone pathways, Ketoconazole does bind to a wide variety of cell receptors....

Ketoconazole binds to the human androgen receptor.Eil C.
Department of Internal Medicine, Naval Hospital, Bethesda, Maryland.


Ketoconazole, an imidazole anti-fungal agent, has often produced features of androgen deficiency including decreased libido, gynecomastia, impotence, oligospermia, and decreased testosterone levels, in men being treated for chronic mycotic infections. Based on these potent effects on gonadal function in vivo as well as previous work in vitro demonstrating affinity of ketoconazole for receptor proteins for glucocorticoids and 1,25(OH)2 vitamin D3 and for sex steroid binding globulin (SSBG), the binding of ketoconazole to human androgen receptors (AR) in vitro was also examined. Ketoconazole competition with [3H]methyltrienolone (R1881) for androgen binding sites in dispersed, intact cultured human skin fibroblasts was determined at 22 degrees C. Fifty percent displacement of [3H]R1881 binding to AR was achieved by 6.4 +/- 1.8 (SE) x 10(-5) M ketoconazole. Additional binding studies performed with ketoconazole in the presence of increasing amounts of [3H]R1881 showed that the interaction of ketoconazole with AR was competitive when the data were analyzed by the Scatchard method. It should be noted, however, that the dose of ketoconazole required for 50% occupancy of the androgen receptor is not likely to be achieved in vivo, at least in plasma. Finally, androgen binding studies performed with other imidazoles, such as clotrimazole, miconazole, and fluconozole, revealed that in this class of compounds only ketoconazole appears to interact with the androgen receptor. Ketoconazole appears to be the first example of a non-steroidal compound which binds competitively to both SSBG and multiple steroid hormone receptors, suggesting that the ligand binding sites of these proteins share some features in common.

PMID: 1526623 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gc1961

31.08.2007, 12:49

@ Jk1

Lost my long response; but.....

This Thread is labeled NIZORAL,

nizoral is the topical version of the drug ketoconazole.

Bryan Thanks for helping clarify this thread :)

The reason it makes a big difference is becuase we are disucssuing Nizoral
as a topical and why and how it works and its mode of action.

And it is by suppressing the androgen receptor, not by being a system anti
androgen or DHT bloker as Bryan Mentioned

Also GC691 i don't think you should comment on topical nizoral if you
haven't read the latest japanease study becuase you are blatantly wrong.

And also has a non androgenetcic growth promoting ability that has yet
to
be scientifically understood.

Nope. Nizoral/Keto impact on androgens is very clearly understood. I have
read many, many papers on this. It is simply a CYP450 inhibitor


Yes here you are wrong as we were talking about topical not internal.

And to date it seems their are at least 2 maybe 3 different modes of
action of topical nizoral

1) Androgen receptor blocker ( see Japan study)

2) Some other non androgenetic growth stimulation mode (See Japan study)

3) By stopping Malasaezum forfora (dandruff) inflammatory response on
hair
http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/pdf?vid=11&hid=12&sid=f7b5499c-7034-41b6-9008-3bdf6ec88215%40sessionmgr107

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/derm/2006/00000007/00000004/art00008

... here is the net. I am not going to type all my points again. Here is the summary.

1. The japanese paper is "lite-science"; you should read all the keto/nizoral research before attempting to argue with me on this subject

2. The hair stimulant reference that they cite is laughable and almost certainly nothing to do with fighting MPB

3. You are confused about topical and systemic. Topical is a mode of application that we use to try to localize the impact of a potentially dangerous drug in our fight against MPB. Topical does not mean that the drug is not absorbed, it has to be in order to work. It does mean that we are trying to limit the systemic increase of the the drug concentration. The reason topicals work is that the chemical pathways act out locally on/in the hair cells, i.e. INTERNALLY. This is another area where we need clarity on our language.

4. Modes of action. Maybe their is some receptor down-regulation; I think the paper is not detailed enough. The hair stimulant refernce is crap. Inflammatory impact of the immune response is quite interesting; I suggest you go read Scientific American from about 3 months ago on this subject.

5. Go read the WHO paper "Endocrine Disruptors"; it will give you some good basic material on the major mechanism of ketoconazole on the hormone system.

6. Don't attack me with one poor piece of research and loose language. Go and do you homework.

7. I will not comment on you crappy posts again until you get educated and stop regurgitating nonsense. I advise others to do likewise.

gc.




gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gc1961

31.08.2007, 10:30

@ chiaHead

I agree with Bryan on this one.....

I damned sure will express my opinion of the vulgar,
sloppy, uneducated use of manufactured pseudo-medical terms on this
forum.

As opposed to the educated use of manufactured pseudo-medical terms?

Here is a term for you: douche bag. Allow me use it in an uneducated and
vulgar manner: You are a douche bag. :-D Just kidding man. :-P

Although it pains me, we do need to be precise on the mechanisms at play.

Just becuase there are thousands of websites that refer to DHT Blockers, or that claim you can grow a 20-inch penis, or that you can eat Krispy Kreame and lose weight at the same time, doesn't make it true.




gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Jk1

31.08.2007, 09:14

@ Jk1

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

So basically to answer the original statement as clearly as possible.

NO NO NO nizoral is not a DHT blocker :)




Jk1 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Jk1

31.08.2007, 08:50

@ chiaHead

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

This Thread is labeled NIZORAL,

nizoral is the topical version of the drug ketoconazole.

Bryan Thanks for helping clarify this thread :)

The reason it makes a big difference is becuase we are disucssuing Nizoral as a topical and why and how it works and its mode of action.

And it is by suppressing the androgen receptor, not by being a system anti androgen or DHT bloker as Bryan Mentioned

Also GC691 i don't think you should comment on topical nizoral if you haven't read the latest japanease study becuase you are blatantly wrong.

And also has a non androgenetcic growth promoting ability that has yet to
be scientifically understood.

Nope. Nizoral/Keto impact on androgens is very clearly understood. I have read many, many papers on this. It is simply a CYP450 inhibitor


Yes here you are wrong as we were talking about topical not internal.

And to date it seems their are at least 2 maybe 3 different modes of action of topical nizoral

1) Androgen receptor blocker ( see Japan study)

2) Some other non androgenetic growth stimulation mode (See Japan study)

3) By stopping Malasaezum forfora (dandruff) inflammatory response on hair
http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/pdf?vid=11&hid=12&sid=f7b5499c-7034-41b6-9008-3bdf6ec88215%40sessionmgr107

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/derm/2006/00000007/00000004/art00008




Jk1 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
chiaHead

30.08.2007, 20:51

@ Bryan

gimme a break

I damned sure will express my opinion of the vulgar,
sloppy, uneducated use of manufactured pseudo-medical terms on this forum.

As opposed to the educated use of manufactured pseudo-medical terms?

Here is a term for you: douche bag. Allow me use it in an uneducated and vulgar manner: You are a douche bag. :-D Just kidding man. :-P




chiaHead is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
30.08.2007, 20:35

@ Bryan

gimme a break

get a life

i dont see anyone complaining about this, other than you,
you are not the board posting, cop. You dont decide the manner
in which we post, or the terminology we use

That's correct, but I damned sure will express my opinion of the vulgar,
sloppy, uneducated use of manufactured pseudo-medical terms on this forum.


google DHT blockers

you will find it on thousands of websites
perhaps if you are bored, you can send each of them a nasty email, chastising them for their ignorant misinformed, thoughtless butchering of medical terminology

it could be your calling in life

as to how we feel about your opinion on this matter, all i have to say is

YAWN:-P :-P




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
Bryan

30.08.2007, 19:55

@ HanginInThere

gimme a break

get a life

i dont see anyone complaining about this, other than you,
you are not the board posting, cop. You dont decide the manner
in which we post, or the terminology we use

That's correct, but I damned sure will express my opinion of the vulgar, sloppy, uneducated use of manufactured pseudo-medical terms on this forum.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
30.08.2007, 19:05

@ Bryan

gimme a break

i agree with chia

when have you ever seen someone use the term androgen receptor
blocker.......thats ridiculous

Like ALL THE TIME in textbooks and medical journals studies. That term is
used synonymously with the word "antiandrogen".

if we were scientists or physicians submitting a technical paper to a
Journal it would be different

I can assure you that there are a lot of technical terms used in
scientific papers that are not used here, we are for the most part
laymen,
not doctors, here

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that you can't even
communicate properly and avoid ambiguity if you keep using these stupid
hairloss-forum expressions like "DHT blocker".

you know exactly what we are talking about when we say DHT blocker, its
androgren receptors on the prostate or the base of the hair follicle
being
blocked

as opposed to 5 AR inhibitor, which blocks conversion of testosterone
to
DHT

Bullshit! I have seen that term used in BOTH situations, where a poster
on one hand was referring to 5a-reductase inhibitors (as I found out later
by either asking him, or by his later postings), and on the other hand by
posters who used it in reference to androgen receptor blockers
(antiandrogens).

BE PROFESSIONAL, and use the proper scientific term. Avoid ambiguity.

get a life

i dont see anyone complaining about this, other than you,
you are not the board posting, cop. You dont decide the manner in which we post, or the terminology we use

if you cannot understand what a poster is referring to, thats your problem




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
Bryan

30.08.2007, 18:54

@ HanginInThere

gimme a break

i agree with chia

when have you ever seen someone use the term androgen receptor
blocker.......thats ridiculous

Like ALL THE TIME in textbooks and medical journals studies. That term is used synonymously with the word "antiandrogen".

if we were scientists or physicians submitting a technical paper to a
Journal it would be different

I can assure you that there are a lot of technical terms used in
scientific papers that are not used here, we are for the most part laymen,
not doctors, here

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is that you can't even communicate properly and avoid ambiguity if you keep using these stupid hairloss-forum expressions like "DHT blocker".

you know exactly what we are talking about when we say DHT blocker, its
androgren receptors on the prostate or the base of the hair follicle being
blocked

as opposed to 5 AR inhibitor, which blocks conversion of testosterone to
DHT

Bullshit! I have seen that term used in BOTH situations, where a poster on one hand was referring to 5a-reductase inhibitors (as I found out later by either asking him, or by his later postings), and on the other hand by posters who used it in reference to androgen receptor blockers (antiandrogens).

BE PROFESSIONAL, and use the proper scientific term. Avoid ambiguity.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
30.08.2007, 17:42

@ chiaHead

gimme a break

OH REALLY?? Then why was there a spirited back-and-forth even RIGHT
HERE
IN THIS VERY SAME THREAD about the meanings of these terms and
expressions?

The intent of this thread was to inform that Nizoral does have an effect
on DHT. Someone, seemingly non-technical, made a statement that it had no
effect on DHT. The exact mechanism, blocking receptors etc, wasn't really
in the scope. I guess I shouldn't have said "block". I was using that as
a generic, non-scientific term.

i agree with chia

when have you ever seen someone use the term androgen receptor blocker.......thats ridiculous

if we were scientists or physicians submitting a technical paper to a Journal it would be different

I can assure you that there are a lot of technical terms used in scientific papers that are not used here, we are for the most part laymen, not doctors, here

you know exactly what we are talking about when we say DHT blocker, its androgren receptors on the prostate or the base of the hair follicle being blocked

as opposed to 5 AR inhibitor, which blocks conversion of testosterone to DHT




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
chiaHead

30.08.2007, 16:41

@ Bryan

It IS blocking DHT

OH REALLY?? Then why was there a spirited back-and-forth even RIGHT HERE
IN THIS VERY SAME THREAD about the meanings of these terms and
expressions?

The intent of this thread was to inform that Nizoral does have an effect on DHT. Someone, seemingly non-technical, made a statement that it had no effect on DHT. The exact mechanism, blocking receptors etc, wasn't really in the scope. I guess I shouldn't have said "block". I was using that as a generic, non-scientific term.




chiaHead is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

30.08.2007, 15:23

@ chiaHead

It IS blocking DHT

Don't use the term "DHT blocker". It's ambiguous and unscientific. You
don't see it used in medical studies or textbooks.

Who gives a shit if it's ambiguous and unscientific. The point of this
thread is that Nizoral has some influence on DHT. This isn't a medical
journal. Most people browsing this site don't want to get that
scientific. If they can slather something on their head that regrows hair
with no negative side effects, that is all that matters.

OH REALLY?? Then why was there a spirited back-and-forth even RIGHT HERE IN THIS VERY SAME THREAD about the meanings of these terms and expressions? If you want to bring the discussion down to a "Me Tarzan you Jane" level, that's your business, but I want people to speak with clarity and precision, so I don't have to GUESS what the hell they're talking about.

Bryan




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
chiaHead

30.08.2007, 13:34

@ Bryan

It IS blocking DHT

Don't use the term "DHT blocker". It's ambiguous and unscientific. You
don't see it used in medical studies or textbooks.

Who gives a shit if it's ambiguous and unscientific. The point of this thread is that Nizoral has some influence on DHT. This isn't a medical journal. Most people browsing this site don't want to get that scientific. If they can slather something on their head that regrows hair with no negative side effects, that is all that matters.




chiaHead is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
chiaHead

30.08.2007, 13:20

@ Bryan

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

Whenever I see somebody say "DHT blocker" on a hairloss forum, it makes me
wanna just THROTTLE the guy!!:-(

DHT blocker :-P




chiaHead is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
30.08.2007, 03:07

@ Bryan

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

there seems to be some debate as to whether the naturals such as Saw
Palmetto, are 5 AR inhibitors, and actually block conversion of
testosterone to DHT, or whehter they block the DHT and other male
hormones from binding to the androgen receptors at the base of the hair
follicles and on the prostate

it seems to me they are weak 5 AR inhibitors and more likely to be
blocking the androgen receptors, although even when this happens it is
not
a total block, Saw Palmetto is documented to bind 40 percent less to
the
prostate, with use of Saw Palmetto

Yep. I've seen claims that saw palmetto has BOTH of those abilities:
it's (supposedly) both a 5a-reductase inhibitor AND an androgen receptor
blocker. I believe I have studies right here in my own Study Stack
attesting to those separate functions. Not sure just how effective it is
at either one, though. That's anybody's guess.

Bryan

it is a weak 5 AR inhibitor however I responded well to it, and the other naturals such as Pygeum nettles beta sitosterol seem to work in different pathways, since after addding them they enhanced my results




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
Bryan

30.08.2007, 01:02

@ HanginInThere

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

there seems to be some debate as to whether the naturals such as Saw
Palmetto, are 5 AR inhibitors, and actually block conversion of
testosterone to DHT, or whehter they block the DHT and other male
hormones from binding to the androgen receptors at the base of the hair
follicles and on the prostate

it seems to me they are weak 5 AR inhibitors and more likely to be
blocking the androgen receptors, although even when this happens it is not
a total block, Saw Palmetto is documented to bind 40 percent less to the
prostate, with use of Saw Palmetto

Yep. I've seen claims that saw palmetto has BOTH of those abilities: it's (supposedly) both a 5a-reductase inhibitor AND an androgen receptor blocker. I believe I have studies right here in my own Study Stack attesting to those separate functions. Not sure just how effective it is at either one, though. That's anybody's guess.

Bryan




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
30.08.2007, 00:47

@ Bryan

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

Nizoral is a DHT blocker. Seems to be some debate on this.

I've read this entire thread with great amusement, because of all the
confusion it contains over TERMINOLOGY!:-) For the love of God, people
need to start using the same terminology that doctors and scientists use.
Why? SO THAT PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT!:angry:

Case in point: what does the expression "DHT blocker" mean (see quoted
sentence above)?? Does it mean something that blocks androgen receptors
(like flutamide, spironolactone, or RU58841), thereby keeping DHT from
binding to them? Or does it mean something that stops testosterone from
being converted into DHT (like finasteride, dutasteride, or turosteride)?

For the first case above, use either "androgen receptor blocker", or
simply "antiandrogen". For the second case, use "5a-reductase inhibitor".
THERE! Problem solved!

Whenever I see somebody say "DHT blocker" on a hairloss forum, it makes me
wanna just THROTTLE the guy!!:-(

Bryan

there seems to be some debate as to whether the naturals such as Saw Palmetto, are 5 AR inhibitors, and actually block conversion of testosterone to DHT, or whehter they block the DHT and other male hormones from binding to the androgen receptors at the base of the hair follicles and on the prostate

it seems to me they are weak 5 AR inhibitors and more likely to be blocking the androgen receptors, although even when this happens it is not a total block, Saw Palmetto is documented to bind 40 percent less to the prostate, with use of Saw Palmetto




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
Bryan

30.08.2007, 00:01

@ HanginInThere

It IS blocking DHT

DHT is an androgen. Supressing the receptor is stopping it from being
receptive to androgens (DHT), ie. blocking androgens (DHT).

agreed that is whey they are called DHT blockers,,,,

Don't use the term "DHT blocker". It's ambiguous and unscientific. You don't see it used in medical studies or textbooks. Use "androgen receptor blocker" or simply "antiandrogen".

Bryan




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

29.08.2007, 23:55

@ gc1961

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

Interestingly Nizoral impacts Adrenal as well as HPTA
endocrinology;

Not when it's used TOPICALLY, which is what we're talking about in this thread. Topical ketoconazole isn't absorbed systemically to any significant extent.

Bryan




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

29.08.2007, 23:43

@ chiaHead

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

Nizoral is a DHT blocker. Seems to be some debate on this.

I've read this entire thread with great amusement, because of all the confusion it contains over TERMINOLOGY!:-) For the love of God, people need to start using the same terminology that doctors and scientists use. Why? SO THAT PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!:angry:

Case in point: what does the expression "DHT blocker" mean (see quoted sentence above)?? Does it mean something that blocks androgen receptors (like flutamide, spironolactone, or RU58841), thereby keeping DHT from binding to them? Or does it mean something that stops testosterone from being converted into DHT (like finasteride, dutasteride, or turosteride)?

For the first case above, use either "androgen receptor blocker", or simply "antiandrogen". For the second case, use "5a-reductase inhibitor". THERE! Problem solved!

Whenever I see somebody say "DHT blocker" on a hairloss forum, it makes me wanna just THROTTLE the guy!!:-(

Bryan




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
26.08.2007, 12:19

@ gc1961

Clarification

I have observed in myself that the "dht blockers" such as saw Palmetto, Nettles, Pygeum, etc can have a powerful effect on halting excess fallout, and also on
regrowth , thickening in thinning areas,

why they do not have this same effect on all men, to me is a mystery, why they can have zero effect on some guys, is perplexing

However, for example, my regimen, if guys try to copy it, they pick and choose a few items, and ignore the vitamins and minerals. I have always stressed the importance of the super hair vitamins and minerals. Most guys pooh pooh this and say they cannot regrow hair. Possibly true, but I was on only Super hair vitamins and minerals for 20 yrs, not even Saw Palmetto Pygeum etc, and I think it had a noticeable delaying effect on my MPB. Why guys dismiss this notion is beyond me, Perhaps it is too simplistic for them, and not supported by enough studies.

I do think hair loss is a complicated problem that must be addressed by many supplements interally as well as many topicals. to really get a handle on it.

I would be curious to see if the rest of your hair fills in also. If in fact the hair follicles do not die, I am curious as to why after four years, that some of the follicles in your crown seem so resistant to the same treatment that the other hairs have so vigorously responded to

Your progress has convinced me that the hair follicles do not die, which is certainly a good thing. Sure raises your spirits to see some new growth, does mine

I will keep the board updated on my niz cream results,




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
gc1961

26.08.2007, 10:01

@ HanginInThere

Clarification

Wow, you're getting pretty technical, but thanks for clarifying things.
You are right, there is a lot of misinformation on this thread.

My point was that suppressing the androgen receptor reduces the
likelyhood
of androgens like DHT from binding. In essence, blocking DHT from
binding
because it has no receptor to bind to since it has been supressed, not
that something else bound to the receptor.

that is my question for years on this board that nobody seems to know the
answer to
either saw palmetto and all the other naturals BLOCK the DHT at the
androgen receptors on the prostate and at the base of the hair
follicles.........or they, being 5 AR inhibitors, prevent DHT from being
manufactured in the first place, which would lower the blood levels of DHT
, and cause all kinds of strange side effects

i was under the impression that propecia lowers blood levels of the male
hormones, which makes sense but that Saw palmetto etc do NOT lower the
blood levels of DHT etc, which in essence would mean that they are not 5AR
inhibitors, or they are very weak 5 AR inhibitors, and they are more
focused on blocked the DHT already in the blood

perhaps gc can clear this up


I have seen no conclusive research on how SP works; yet like others I continue to use it (which may be a mistake).

Propecia systemically reduces DHT by inhibiting 1-type of 5AR; it does nothing by direct action to reduce systemic T levels.

Blocking T-to-DHT may result in an increase in Estrogen; there is some research that supports this.

The DHT-5AR is an unusual hormone-enzyme combo in that it has a feed-forward mechanism; the more DHT that is produced the more 5AR that is produced, producing more DHT. Most hormone systems in the body have a feedback mechanism.

There is also significant evidence that DHT mutations may be the cause of some significant diseases.

I think of the problem as follows;

1. MPB is triggered by hormones; but probably not exclusively
2. What types of hormones are there?
3. Where are hormones made?
4. How do they get to the hair cells; i.e. mode of transportation?
5. What is the mechanism for impacting the cell; cell-receptor binding?
6. On binding, what is the sequence of biochemical processes that occur?
7. How does all this relate to a normal hair-cycle?

Once I completed my research on this I then started to focus on what is normal body process and what are the things that happen unusually for people with hairloss.

I believe that many people and much of the research is focused on trying to prevent processes that are not the root problem.

Most of the good research relates to cancer treatments.




gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gc1961

26.08.2007, 09:43

@ chiaHead

Saw Palmetto

It WAS my understanding that saw palmetto just binds to the receptor site,
but it seems there are studies that show it also inhibits 5AR, and has
anti-inflammatory properties:

Studies have shown that Saw Palmetto extract reduced the uptake, in
tissue specimens ,of both testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) by
more than 40%. Other studies have shown that Saw Palmetto inhibits the
conversion of the less active testosterone to the more active DHT by
inhibiting the enzyme 5 alpha reductase. Hence Saw Palmetto, by blocking
the binding of DHT to nuclear receptor sites and inhibiting the conversion
of testosterone to DHT ,decreases the proliferative effects of DHT on
prostate cells


Saw Palmetto also inhibits the cyclo-oxygenase and 5-lipoxygenase
pathways, which results in prevention of biosynthesis of inflammation
producing substances such as prostaglandin and leukotrienes. It also
inhibits the arachidonic acid cascade, and all these account for the
anti-inflammatory and anti-edematous properties of saw palmetto.


http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b3.herb.monos/b3.1.monographs/saw.palmetto.html

Chia, the site you reference is a little confusing since it says SP works the same way as Propecia and then it lists many other mechanisms.

I will go back and re-read my SP research and see if I can reach a conclusion; which I will share.

GC.




gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
chiaHead

25.08.2007, 21:08

@ HanginInThere

Saw Palmetto

It WAS my understanding that saw palmetto just binds to the receptor site, but it seems there are studies that show it also inhibits 5AR, and has anti-inflammatory properties:

Studies have shown that Saw Palmetto extract reduced the uptake, in tissue specimens ,of both testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) by more than 40%. Other studies have shown that Saw Palmetto inhibits the conversion of the less active testosterone to the more active DHT by inhibiting the enzyme 5 alpha reductase. Hence Saw Palmetto, by blocking the binding of DHT to nuclear receptor sites and inhibiting the conversion of testosterone to DHT ,decreases the proliferative effects of DHT on prostate cells

Saw Palmetto also inhibits the cyclo-oxygenase and 5-lipoxygenase pathways, which results in prevention of biosynthesis of inflammation producing substances such as prostaglandin and leukotrienes. It also inhibits the arachidonic acid cascade, and all these account for the anti-inflammatory and anti-edematous properties of saw palmetto.

http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b3.herb.monos/b3.1.monographs/saw.palmetto.html




chiaHead is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
25.08.2007, 18:29

@ chiaHead

Clarification

Wow, you're getting pretty technical, but thanks for clarifying things.
You are right, there is a lot of misinformation on this thread.

My point was that suppressing the androgen receptor reduces the likelyhood
of androgens like DHT from binding. In essence, blocking DHT from binding
because it has no receptor to bind to since it has been supressed, not
that something else bound to the receptor.

that is my question for years on this board that nobody seems to know the answer to
either saw palmetto and all the other naturals BLOCK the DHT at the androgen receptors on the prostate and at the base of the hair follicles.........or they, being 5 AR inhibitors, prevent DHT from being manufactured in the first place, which would lower the blood levels of DHT , and cause all kinds of strange side effects

i was under the impression that propecia lowers blood levels of the male hormones, which makes sense but that Saw palmetto etc do NOT lower the blood levels of DHT etc, which in essence would mean that they are not 5AR inhibitors, or they are very weak 5 AR inhibitors, and they are more focused on blocked the DHT already in the blood

perhaps gc can clear this up




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
chiaHead

25.08.2007, 18:15

@ gc1961

Clarification

Wow, you're getting pretty technical, but thanks for clarifying things. You are right, there is a lot of misinformation on this thread.

My point was that suppressing the androgen receptor reduces the likelyhood of androgens like DHT from binding. In essence, blocking DHT from binding because it has no receptor to bind to since it has been supressed, not that something else bound to the receptor.




chiaHead is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
25.08.2007, 17:23

@ gc1961

A painful thread.

Whereas nizoral topical works topical by stopping the DHT from
attaching
to the androgen receptor locally. So it is blocking DHT but in a
different
and in my opinion better way by doing it at the receptor.

Saw palmetto works at the receptor site too. It binds to the
receptor
site so DHT can't. If you say that mechanism is better, you are
saying
SP
is better than propecia. Not knocking SP, cuz I'm using it, but I
wouldn't
say it's better than propecia.

I think Prop has a higher percentage of success but also comes with the
side effects, however out of the dht blockers, it is one of the
weakest,
SP, that is
beta sis is 3000 times more powerful than SP

Guys,

I am sorry, but most of the posts in this thread are either wrong or have
zero scientific support - Jesus I am sound like Brian (somebody shoot
me).

First, Nizoral (Ketoconazole) is a pretty non-specific inhibitor of
steroid hormone synthesis. All steroid hormones originate with Cholesterol
and thru numerous chemical steps end up as your favorite hormone. The
CYP450 enymes enable many of these pathways and it is this action that
Niz/Keto interferes with. Taken systemically you will really screw with
you hormones. The World Health Organization wrote a pretty good paper on
this.

This is the only scientific research I have seen on the mechanism for
Niz/Keto.

Second, the one about something binding in the blood.. that's a hoot.
Propecia/Finansteride is very specific in it's mechanism; it inhibits 5AR
and therefore blocks the production of DHT. Simple. The fact that DHT is
not really the problem is a completely different story. Hormone-binding is
an interesting and widely mis-understood area, e.g. the role of SHBG or
cell-receptor binding.

Third, the SP mechanism remains unclear. It is also unclear that
Betasitosterol is the active component of SP. I believe that there is
enough evidence that SP works on some pathweays and is clearly independent
of the Fin pathway and I do take it. But to be clear it's mechanism is
still unproven; and just because there are a bunch of websites that say it
blocks cell receptors does not mean didly squat.

Four, cell receptors are very interesting, but very complex. There are
many receptors active in hair cells; these vary by stage in the
hair-cycle, location on the hair (bulb, etc), receptor-type (inside or
edge of the cell) and location of hair on the body. The focus on the
T-receptor in hair research is one reason that current approaches work for
so few people. Our research in cell receptor chemisty is improving quickly,
but there are soooooo many pathways and unknowns.

I do see so many people just repeating stuff that they have heard from
others on this site; unfortunately this leads to threads like this one.

Brain (oops I mean GC)

the mechanism of the natural "dht blockers" may not yet be defined , but in my case they work well and pygeum and nettles for example, seem to add to the benefit, as well as beta sitosterol

they do not seem capable of tremendous regrowth on bald areas, in fact none that I have noticed
but they have good abilities in halting excess fall out, and also thickening of thin areas..........if the person is lucky enough to respond to them, as I was




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
gc1961

25.08.2007, 12:59

@ Jk1

JK1 you are one confused individual....

Yeah the difference is when u say something is a DHT blocker like Propecia,
is that propecia binds to the androgen hormone in your blood and
systemically stops any of the DHT binding with anything else that is can
attach to lik androgen receptors in your skin or brain, ie. it inactivates
the DHT so it cannot bind to anyhing.

Nope. Propecia was designed to prevent conversion of T to DHT by impacting the 5AR enzyme. There are 2 types of 5AR, both are genetically encoded. You may be thinking about Sex-Hormone-Binding-Globulin (SHBG), which is related to hairloss but in a very convoluted way.


Whereas nizoral topical works topical by stopping the DHT from attaching
to the androgen receptor locally. So it is blocking DHT but in a different
and in my opinion better way by doing it at the receptor.

Nope. Nizoral (Ketoconazole) does what Propecia does, but it blocks more CYP450 enzymes (5AR is one/two) and therefore blocks many other hormones from developing, e.g. Estrogen also.

So i think its better if we clarify that and not confuse it with other DHT
blockers like FIN and DUT.

Here I agree. Clarity is good.

Nizoral works by suppressing the androgen receptors in the scalp
SKin/follicles.

I have not seen reserach that suggests this as a secondary mode of action for Nizoral but will read the Japanese study. I have research Nizoral/Keto extensively.

And also has a non androgenetcic growth promoting ability that has yet to
be scientifically understood.

Nope. Nizoral/Keto impact on androgens is very clearly understood. I have read many, many papers on this. It is simply a CYP450 inhibitor.

When ketoconaozle is taken internally it will have DHT blocking like FIN
and Dut

Nope. It's gonna completely screw your hormone balance (HPTA-axis and also Thyroid) and you destroy your liver to the bargain.


If you look at the recent Japan nizoral study they say it works by
suppressing the androgen receptor and also by being a non androgen
related
growth stimulator. So its not blocking DHT like propecia does.

"suppressing the androgen receptor" = blocking DHT.


Nope. For complete clarity suppressing the androgen receptor is not the same as blocking DHT. Close but not exact.

Certain drugs can reduce/increase the number of androgen receptors, e.g. Rhetinoic Acid reduces the overall number of andgrogen receptors. This is receptor suppression in miy mind.

Receptor blocking is where the same number of receptors exist, but a substance is introduced that preferentially binds to the receptor and blocks the default compund from binding. In this case if we stop DHT binding to the T-receptor we stop the cascade of chemical reactions that follow; release of the Heat Shock Protein and local DNA modification.

There has been far less work on the T-receptor than the E-receptors (there are 2 in hair); this is because E-receptors are central to cancer research. Drugs named Specific-Estrogen-Receptor-Modulators (SERMs) are the output of this. Care needs to be taken as SERMs may have very different effects at different body locations. Tamoxifen is a SERM that blocks the E-receptor in breast cells.

DHT is an androgen. Supressing the receptor is stopping it from
being
receptive to androgens (DHT), ie. blocking androgens (DHT).

agreed that is whey they are called DHT blockers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

DHT blockers is a term used in hairloss discussions; scientific research is much more precise and the term is not used.




gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gc1961

25.08.2007, 12:42

@ HanginInThere

A painful thread.

Whereas nizoral topical works topical by stopping the DHT from
attaching
to the androgen receptor locally. So it is blocking DHT but in a
different
and in my opinion better way by doing it at the receptor.

Saw palmetto works at the receptor site too. It binds to the receptor
site so DHT can't. If you say that mechanism is better, you are saying
SP
is better than propecia. Not knocking SP, cuz I'm using it, but I
wouldn't
say it's better than propecia.

I think Prop has a higher percentage of success but also comes with the
side effects, however out of the dht blockers, it is one of the weakest,
SP, that is
beta sis is 3000 times more powerful than SP

Guys,

I am sorry, but most of the posts in this thread are either wrong or have zero scientific support - Jesus I am sound like Brian (somebody shoot me).

First, Nizoral (Ketoconazole) is a pretty non-specific inhibitor of steroid hormone synthesis. All steroid hormones originate with Cholesterol and thru numerous chemical steps end up as your favorite hormone. The CYP450 enymes enable many of these pathways and it is this action that Niz/Keto interferes with. Taken systemically you will really screw with you hormones. The World Health Organization wrote a pretty good paper on this.

This is the only scientific research I have seen on the mechanism for Niz/Keto.

Second, the one about something binding in the blood.. that's a hoot. Propecia/Finansteride is very specific in it's mechanism; it inhibits 5AR and therefore blocks the production of DHT. Simple. The fact that DHT is not really the problem is a completely different story. Hormone-binding is an interesting and widely mis-understood area, e.g. the role of SHBG or cell-receptor binding.

Third, the SP mechanism remains unclear. It is also unclear that Betasitosterol is the active component of SP. I believe that there is enough evidence that SP works on some pathweays and is clearly independent of the Fin pathway and I do take it. But to be clear it's mechanism is still unproven; and just because there are a bunch of websites that say it blocks cell receptors does not mean didly squat.

Four, cell receptors are very interesting, but very complex. There are many receptors active in hair cells; these vary by stage in the hair-cycle, location on the hair (bulb, etc), receptor-type (inside or edge of the cell) and location of hair on the body. The focus on the T-receptor in hair research is one reason that current approaches work for so few people. Our research in cell receptor chemisty is improving quickly, but there are soooooo many pathways and unknowns.

I do see so many people just repeating stuff that they have heard from others on this site; unfortunately this leads to threads like this one.

Brain (oops I mean GC)




gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
23.08.2007, 20:57

@ chiaHead

Saw Palmetto

Whereas nizoral topical works topical by stopping the DHT from attaching
to the androgen receptor locally. So it is blocking DHT but in a
different
and in my opinion better way by doing it at the receptor.

Saw palmetto works at the receptor site too. It binds to the receptor
site so DHT can't. If you say that mechanism is better, you are saying SP
is better than propecia. Not knocking SP, cuz I'm using it, but I wouldn't
say it's better than propecia.

I think Prop has a higher percentage of success but also comes with the side effects, however out of the dht blockers, it is one of the weakest, SP, that is
beta sis is 3000 times more powerful than SP




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
chiaHead

23.08.2007, 18:57

@ Jk1

Saw Palmetto

Whereas nizoral topical works topical by stopping the DHT from attaching
to the androgen receptor locally. So it is blocking DHT but in a different
and in my opinion better way by doing it at the receptor.

Saw palmetto works at the receptor site too. It binds to the receptor site so DHT can't. If you say that mechanism is better, you are saying SP is better than propecia. Not knocking SP, cuz I'm using it, but I wouldn't say it's better than propecia.




chiaHead is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
22.08.2007, 10:06

@ Jk1

It IS blocking DHT

Yeah the difference is when u say something is a DHT blocker like Propecia,
is that propecia binds to the androgen hormone in your blood and
systemically stops any of the DHT binding with anything else that is can
attach to lik androgen receptors in your skin or brain, ie. it inactivates
the DHT so it cannot bind to anyhing.

Whereas nizoral topical works topical by stopping the DHT from attaching
to the androgen receptor locally. So it is blocking DHT but in a different
and in my opinion better way by doing it at the receptor.

So i think its better if we clarify that and not confuse it with other DHT
blockers like FIN and DUT.

Nizoral works by suppressing the androgen receptors in the scalp
SKin/follicles.
And also has a non androgenetcic growth promoting ability that has yet to
be scientifically understood.

When ketoconaozle is taken internally it will have DHT blocking like FIN
and Dut


If you look at the recent Japan nizoral study they say it works by
suppressing the androgen receptor and also by being a non androgen
related
growth stimulator. So its not blocking DHT like propecia does.

"suppressing the androgen receptor" = blocking DHT.

DHT is an androgen. Supressing the receptor is stopping it from
being
receptive to androgens (DHT), ie. blocking androgens (DHT).

agreed that is whey they are called DHT blockers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

taking keto internally is not recommended
potentially fatal liver damage




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
Jk1

22.08.2007, 10:02

@ HanginInThere

It IS blocking DHT

Yeah the difference is when u say something is a DHT blocker like Propecia, is that propecia binds to the androgen hormone in your blood and systemically stops any of the DHT binding with anything else that is can attach to lik androgen receptors in your skin or brain, ie. it inactivates the DHT so it cannot bind to anyhing.

Whereas nizoral topical works topical by stopping the DHT from attaching to the androgen receptor locally. So it is blocking DHT but in a different and in my opinion better way by doing it at the receptor.

So i think its better if we clarify that and not confuse it with other DHT blockers like FIN and DUT.

Nizoral works by suppressing the androgen receptors in the scalp SKin/follicles.
And also has a non androgenetcic growth promoting ability that has yet to be scientifically understood.

When ketoconaozle is taken internally it will have DHT blocking like FIN and Dut


If you look at the recent Japan nizoral study they say it works by
suppressing the androgen receptor and also by being a non androgen
related
growth stimulator. So its not blocking DHT like propecia does.

"suppressing the androgen receptor" = blocking DHT.

DHT is an androgen. Supressing the receptor is stopping it from being
receptive to androgens (DHT), ie. blocking androgens (DHT).

agreed that is whey they are called DHT blockers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,





Jk1 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
21.08.2007, 13:54

@ chiaHead

It IS blocking DHT

If you look at the recent Japan nizoral study they say it works by
suppressing the androgen receptor and also by being a non androgen
related
growth stimulator. So its not blocking DHT like propecia does.

"suppressing the androgen receptor" = blocking DHT.

DHT is an androgen. Supressing the receptor is stopping it from being
receptive to androgens (DHT), ie. blocking androgens (DHT).

agreed that is whey they are called DHT blockers,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
chiaHead

21.08.2007, 12:46

@ Jk1

It IS blocking DHT

If you look at the recent Japan nizoral study they say it works by
suppressing the androgen receptor and also by being a non androgen related
growth stimulator. So its not blocking DHT like propecia does.

"suppressing the androgen receptor" = blocking DHT.

DHT is an androgen. Supressing the receptor is stopping it from being receptive to androgens (DHT), ie. blocking androgens (DHT).




chiaHead is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Jk1

21.08.2007, 09:17

@ gc1961

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

If you look at the recent Japan nizoral study they say it works by suppressing the androgen receptor and also by being a non androgen related growth stimulator. So its not blocking DHT like propecia does.


gc1961, do you think nizoral might though impact the sex hormonal
balance
and induce a slight feedback to the pituitary gland??

Use is ONLY as a topical and you should be ok; should be far less effect
than using systemic drugs like Finasteride or Dutasteride.

Nizoral (Ketoconazole) impacts a broader set of hormones (DHEA, Estrogen,
etc) so should only be used topically.




Jk1 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gc1961

20.08.2007, 14:31

@ brm

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

gc1961, do you think nizoral might though impact the sex hormonal balance
and induce a slight feedback to the pituitary gland??

Use is ONLY as a topical and you should be ok; should be far less effect than using systemic drugs like Finasteride or Dutasteride.

Nizoral (Ketoconazole) impacts a broader set of hormones (DHEA, Estrogen, etc) so should only be used topically.




gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
HanginInThere

Manila(UwishUrHere),
20.08.2007, 05:36

@ trojanboy

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

who cares. doesn't grow hair.

yes gc1961 pics are fake right and the japanese study pics are fake

and all those new hairs in my frontal temple and hairline are just my imagination, ah ok thanks for your expertise in this matter




HanginInThere is located in MANILA(UWISHURHERE) and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.

---
Recommended Hangin Regimen
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Saw Palmetto 320mg/day
Beta Sitosterol 125mcg/day
Pygeum 500/day
Nettles 500/day
Kal Amino Max 2/day


Post reply
trojanboy

20.08.2007, 05:20

@ chiaHead

Nizoral IS a DHT blocker

who cares. doesn't grow hair.



trojanboy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
trojanboy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply

Thread view  Order  «  
 
116151 Postings in 11105 Threads, 5360 registered users
Hair Loss Forum | Admin contact

 

Disclosure: This is an advertising site for our paid sponsors & advertisers. The contents, videos & photos on HairSite are provided by paid sponsors and are not endorsed by HairSite in any way. The recommendations, results, and representations made by our sponsors/advertisers do not reflect the opinions of HairSite. This site is to showcase successful hair restoration results only. It is not the mandate of this site to engage in the discussion of failed, unsuccessful procedures, lawsuits, litigations or complaint cases; comments of such nature, including external links, may be removed from the forum. Notify hairsite@aol.com any false, defamatory, misleading or inappropriate user generated contents for immediate removal from the forum. Also read Terms of Use & Privacy Statement |  HairSite advertisers: ASMED | Dr. Bhatti | Dr. Bisanga | Dr. Cole | Dr. Hakan Doganay | Dr.Epstein | Dr. Jones | Dr. Halder | Hasson & Wong | Dr. Klein | Dr. Madhu | Dr. Mwamba | Dr. Donald Ng| Dr. Poswal | Dr. Rahal | Dr. Razack | Dr. Reddy | Dr. Umar | Dr. Woods | DHI Global | HDC Clinic | |Lasercomb | Reviva Clinic | Ziering Medical|